Get Rid of Special Permits?

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

I am usually with ya Tony but on this one I do not like the proposal. I am in favor of how things are being done now

with the auction tags and raffles tags. Thanks.

 

just my .02

 

 

I am ALL for the special permits. The groups that sell or raffle these permits attract a lot of support form people who might not otherwise spend their money on our wildlife or in our state. These permits bring a bunch of out-of-state money here.... all, or most of which will be gone if these tags are gone. If you all want to raise more money I am for that too. But, one incident does NOT constitute a need for a sollution.... I am disapointed that we are still talking about this and still beating a dead dog.... Right, wrong, or indifferent..... this ONE incident does not make the whole concept bad!!! We could find our entire hunting sport in jeopardy if the anti's could use one hunting accident, or one game violation, or hunter argument against us all to change laws...... Lets get back to SUPPORTING OUR SPORT instead of proving amunition..... the rest of this will be settled by the laws that we already have in place. Done deal.

 

CnS

[bowhuntinmaniac]

I have to say leave it as it is.

The AZBGSR, and auction tags probably raise about $800,000 to $1,000,000 a year for wildlife. I think it would be hard to match that by making the hunters pay for it.

Also, why make the everyday hunter pay again, if the guy with money wants to buy his way in, then let him.

[Outdoor Writer]

Unless these stamps are a requirement it won't work, how many people donate part of their refund to the habitat, I would like to see that data. Also are these stamps going to be species specific, coues, muley, bighorn, elk, etc..., not to mention that I doubt the commission would be able to allocate that money if it was from a stamp to a specific group to monitor it and why would they, and I would hope it wouldn't have to go through the legislature because that could be a train wreck. We have a pretty simple process right now, the super raffle and the auction tags, I like simple especially when it comes to politicians and yes the commissioners are politicians. I see this what could be a stupid mistake made by someone and us turning it into a collosal mistake that could cost hunters, wildlife, and habitat in AZ for many years. We need to let the law do its job, let the process run its course, and let the justice system deal with this as they should in any case like this be it during a regular hunt or a special hunt, and not jump to change something that was not broke.

 

Keith,

 

Reread my previous messages here that answer every question you asked above. -TONY

[Outdoor Writer]

I am usually with ya Tony but on this one I do not like the proposal. I am in favor of how things are being done now

with the auction tags and raffles tags. Thanks.

 

just my .02

 

 

I am ALL for the special permits. The groups that sell or raffle these permits attract a lot of support form people who might not otherwise spend their money on our wildlife or in our state. These permits bring a bunch of out-of-state money here.... all, or most of which will be gone if these tags are gone. If you all want to raise more money I am for that too. But, one incident does NOT constitute a need for a sollution.... I am disapointed that we are still talking about this and still beating a dead dog.... Right, wrong, or indifferent..... this ONE incident does not make the whole concept bad!!! We could find our entire hunting sport in jeopardy if the anti's could use one hunting accident, or one game violation, or hunter argument against us all to change laws...... Lets get back to SUPPORTING OUR SPORT instead of proving amunition..... the rest of this will be settled by the laws that we already have in place. Done deal.

 

CnS

 

Maybe everyone else is, but I'm not basing anything on "this one incident." It just happens to be another odorous incident to what has become a perverted system, one that has changed drastically from the original concept and design of these special tags. Originally, they were set up with something like six week seasons, then it went to six months and then it became a year. Hunting is now done by committee with extravagant "finder's fees" further perverting the concept because the almighty dollar reigns supreme. For the tag holder, his hard-earned trophy is but a mere phone call away. Of course, that's only after he approves of it by reviewing the video tapes.

 

I have been around since the beginning of these hunts and have written articles on several of them. The many interviews I've done with the "hunters" -- used loosely -- and guides have revealed many of the nits involved with those hunts. On one such hunt several years ago with the mule deer tag, the hunter, who could barely walk because of severe arthritis, spent a few hours in AZ on his "hunt," then went home with his trophy, which he bought for about $135,000 total.

 

 

Just recall a few years ago when a law was passed banning this sort of hunt for mountain lions and ask yourselves why that happened. Granted a lion in a tree might be a bit more captive than an elk in a subdivision or a mule deer on the Strip being watched constantly by 10 people, but the end result is the same.

 

Most of you might not have seen the article I did on another trophy mule deer, where I also covered the subject of chute planes extensively and how THAT particular hunter refused any help from those who offered to use them. When I wrote that article, I contacted G&F to see how many complaints they receive. The previous year, there were two. After the article appeared, complaints started rolling in, and eventually flying during the seasons became history. If my article had anything to do with that, I'm tickled pink. Oh, and I interviewed one very well known elk guide who was a big chute plane user & proponent at the time, but I never included anything he said in the article because he would only agree to be quoted anonymously, i.e. no credibilty. I won't mention his name, however. If anyone wants to read it, just send me a PM with your e-mail address.

 

Whether this latest incident has legal ramifications or not has little to do with it other than reveal greater stupidity. And if true, all it will do is add a stronger stink to odor. -TONY

[jbone]

Tony, your analogy of a canned hunt refering to a treed lion is no where near the same as any of the other hunts you refer to unless they are in a pen or tied to a tree. These hunters and I use the term hunters are sportsmen the same as anyone else. There is no difference in having friend who located a big buck in a unit you have a tag in and on opening day you go in with your buddy and he shows it to you and you shoot it. Maybe you bought him some beers or took him to dinner for the help?

 

I have been on several of these hunts you refer to, one person in particular was not able to walk well, but he enjoyed himself and the company he had. Does that make him not a hunter, because he has money and can't walk? I don't think so. If I have a tag and someone other than me locates a trophy animal and is able to keep an eye on it through scouting and spending time with it, I would have no problem in going with that person opening morning to try and harvest that animal if the individual was gracious enough to help me out.

 

To each his own, what you think is sportsman like, someone else might not think so, as is the case we have here. Thats what makes this world turn, not everyones beliefs are the same. Don't try to change a persons perspectives. I don't believe in high fenced hunts, so I won't participate in them, should I try and abolish them, I don't think so. To each his own.

 

Fight a fight that needs to be fought not one against individuals that support our state and the sport you and everyone else on this site loves so dearly.

[Outdoor Writer]

... and the sport you and everyone else on this site loves so dearly.

 

And that is exactly why I see the need for change. I bet the farm the non-hunters who saw that photo and read that article have a lot less love for our sport now more so than ever. And it is the non-hunting public that has the reins as to the continued existence to what we "loves so dearly." For reference, check all the voter-pushed initiatives that recently passed here and in several nearby states.

 

Lastly, I do see a huge difference between the examples in your message with your buddy and the way the hunts are now conducted for many of the special tags, especially elk and deer. It's the equivalent of having an occasional beer to being an alcoholic.

 

Regardless, this is the last comment I'll make on any of the controversial issues that seemingly crop up here on a daily basis. It eats up too much valuable time and accomplishes little.

 

Have a great weekend. -TONY

[Noel Arnold]

Tony,

As you know from the previous thread ,that I totally support your plan.I just do not think your going to get a lot of support from the people on this site.The reason is that in some way or another they are connected personally to these type of tag's.If you go to monstermuleys,were it is people from all of the states,then you will see that there is a lot more people that believe these tags' are hurting the world of (public) tags.And I think that if you polled every person that put in for a tag in Arizona,then you would also get the support.

Noel

l

[dustyb0]

How about a simple voting poll,for or against auction tags,as they are now?

[KGAINES]

Tony I have read what you said and I just don't think it can be broken down that easily, try to get stuff like that by politicians and see if they don't change it. Heck they would change it and say we asked for it, kind of like they tried with the overlap issue. No matter how we look at it there is going to be issues from any change and they could be a lot worse than they are right now, the grass isn't always greener on the other side. People who are against the special tags will use this for ammunition against them and the people that use these funds will have yet another fight on their hands. I can add this too; I am not a guide, I have never been a guide, I just like to hunt, I don't have and may never have the money to purchase one of these tags, I have never been a part of one of these hunts, I can however purchase a few super raffle tickets for a chance at a tag and no I wouldn't hire a guide I would spend as much time out of that year hunting as possible just for the fun of doing it. I have said this before also, I didn't realize all the behind the scenes political crap that goes on in the AZGFD and the commission until I read about it on here, then I went to a commission meeting and watched in amazement as they tried to discredit what the ADA did with their survey, and what some of the studies that were done on the Kaibab revealed. I went to an ADA meeting and have been going ever since, it is my way of doing my part to preserve hunting in AZ for all of us and especially for my kids, and if some sucker with a lot of money wants to pay 135,000 dollars for a tag then God Bless him, he does need to follow the rules and obey the laws and hopefully use some common sense in the process, and if he doesn't then hopefully the justice system will work as it should for all lawbreakers, special or not.

 

If there was a way to get rid of the ADA, AES, ADBSS, ABA, and the rest of the so called alphabet groups the commission that is in there now would sure look into it because these groups are who notifies the public when something is getting ready to happen, this website helps with that, but you can bet that the person starting the topic is part of one of these groups, and the commission looks at these groups as a thorn in their side, they only suck up when it will benefit them.

 

dustyb0 as you can tell my vote is for the tags.

 

Who cares what other states do with their tags, AZ still has some of the best quality hunting in the united states when it comes to QUALITY, but our game and fish dept. is trying to follow these other state models and where is that going to get us.

[Huntn coues]

Nicely put KGAINES

[Jimhm]

Keith, if you run for president, you got my vote and thanks for getting involved with the ADA.

 

Jim

[TATAat27]

I think the super raffle is a great idea, but the odds of getting a tag is on the side of the rich. Now I know the average Joe has won before, but there should be a limit i.e. one ticket per species, that gives everyone the same opportunity and I think more people will buy one if they have an equal chance of being drawn. As far as the special interest groups, yes they do a lot for our wildlife, but I just don't like the idea of autioning off our wildlife to the highest bidder. I'd rather pay a couple of dollars more on liscense/tag fees than to give Richie Rich a tag that he doesn't deserve. Maybe the idea Tony offered isn't the perfect solution in this case, but I think most of us will agree that there has to be or could be a better way of raising money.

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

I think the super raffle is a great idea, but the odds of getting a tag is on the side of the rich. Now I know the average Joe has won before, but there should be a limit i.e. one ticket per species, that gives everyone the same opportunity and I think more people will buy one if they have an equal chance of being drawn. As far as the special interest groups, yes they do a lot for our wildlife, but I just don't like the idea of autioning off our wildlife to the highest bidder. I'd rather pay a couple of dollars more on liscense/tag fees than to give Richie Rich a tag that he doesn't deserve. Maybe the idea Tony offered isn't the perfect solution in this case, but I think most of us will agree that there has to be or could be a better way of raising money.

 

 

Since when is life fair???? BTW.... Average Joes do win the Super Raffle. I am all for raising additional funds for wildlife!! And all the ideas posted on this thread are great money makers..... but why find ways to replace the funds we already have. I think we can all agree that all costs are up in the world we live in... including the cost of saving and maintaining wildlife and thier habitat. These Programs are good.... If you all want to fix on something..... work on how to fix people..... not the program.

 

CnS