Record Book Withdrawals

[CHD]

Lark,

 

Here we go again, doggonnit. You know I just can't resist the urge to contradict you when you give your VERY uninformed opinions about famous (infamous) hunters. Funny thing is..........everything else you say i completely agree with.

 

I know Kirt, and I am a big fan of his POSITIVE side. In fact, I am his greatest fan when it comes to his knowledge, motivational ability, and successes in whacking big ol bucks. But he didn't kill the buck on the cover of his book. I don't believe for a minute that he poached it. But he lied about where he acquired it. Wetmule knows this too, and if you read his messages carefully, you will see that he indirectly told you that.

 

B & C didn't reject his buck because of photos of the rack "that were on the other side of the deer". They tracked down the original photographer, who was still living. He provided a full-frontal closeup photo of the buck with the original Kaibab hunter taken right after it was killed. You can even see the metal Kaibab tag on the rack. This is a clear photo, and every single bump, ridge, and discoloration matches the rack on the cover of his book. You would be hard pressed to find two bucks with eyeguards that matched this closely, much less two 270" nontypical racks. Kirt didn't kill that buck.

 

I was like you and didn't want to belive the scuttlebutt and slander and vicious lies. So I did my own research, like you. I have a copy of this photo. PM me with your address and I will send you a copy.

 

I too have B & C entries. It took me 6 years to enter the first one. I eventually did it for the animals, because I respect them so much. Also, I use the "books" for research and motivation, and I just didn't want to be a hypocrite for not contributing. I don't have anything against B & C, but I certainly can believe that they are a bunch of snob, elitist pricks that think the world of trophy hunting revolves around a number.

 

Kirt Darner is the greatest trophy mule deer hunter that has ever lived or ever will live, by far. He has whacked MANY huge bucks since his fame died, and is a big ol muley's worst nightmare. That buck he took in Sonora in 1996 scores 216 SCI typical (Kirt sent me an official score sheet), and will not be #2 in the world but is still a helluva big and massive typical (I have seen it in person many times). He also whacked another net book typical two years later in Sonora. The fairest way that I have ever heard his deception described is that "he hedged his bet". He never had a pot to piss in, knew he had some valuable skills, and wanted to make some $$$ from them just like everyone else in this miserable, phony, capitalist society that we live in.

 

Chris Darnell

Edited January 1, 1970 by CHD

[.270]

3 things dummy, photos of the deer with the antlers attached to the skull and the skull attached to the front quarters. carbon 14- the most definitive dating method on earth. done by an independent 3rd party. by a guy that is the best on earth at it. it's science. it's truth. why would he ever let it be dated, if he didn't know he was right? i know you can't accept it, but that's just the way it is. and Duard Sanford told me, to my face, that the buck in question had a broken skull plate. smashed into pieces. described how it happened and where it happened. had to be repaired with fiberglass. Kirt's isn't. guess when it was growing wider and growing more points over those 30 years, it healed itself. yeah, that's the ticket. and why, when he's killed several bucks considerably larger, would he choose that one for the cover of his first book? oh yeah, remember his old remington add with the bucks on the barn? that buck was in that photo. and the other one hadn't been stolen yet. 'splain that. go ahead and believe what ya want. like i said, i proved to myself, for myself, that his buck isn't the one in the old magazine. there are some spooky similarities, but i've seen other racks that were just as similar to each other. on top off all that, that stinkin' babyraper pervert was the guy that started all the crap in the first place. yeah, he's a real good source of info. i know i'm in the minority it what i think. don't really care. because i know i'm right. lay it all out and look at it. who would win in court? think you could beat carbon 14? Lark.

[wetmule]

Heard all these excuses before many times, and they don't hold any water. I'm amazed at the carbon 14 one, that still baffles me. Carbon 14 dating is a process that dates old and aincient stuff. Carbon 14 is a radioactive atom that is present in all living things. When something dies it quits taking in carbon. That particular atom begins decaying when that particular plant or animal dies. It has a half life of close to 5800 years. The process of carbon dating is only accurate on items that are from 50 at the earliest to about 60,000 years old. Even after 50 years the carbon 14 in a bone or antler would show little or no decay. What would be the point of carbon dating a bone or antler that is only around 30 years old. Maybe 15 at the time it was apparantly carbon dated. It still wouldn't tell you anything even if the animal in question was taken during world war II. I wonder which point or antler tip was removed so the chemical analysis could take place. I'm not an expert but I do know you need some material to do the analysis on, maybe some scrapings or scratching off some bone would be enough I don't know. But I do know it would'nt matter and really would'nt tell you anything till it got real old.

[.270]

you're sorta right about carbon 14, about ancient things. since WWII and the A-bomb and all of the atomic tests that have been performed, the atmosphere has a very measurable amount of radiation from year to year and anything exposed to the atmosphere, like an antler, can be dated very accurately. a body organ or flesh or an internal bone, may not be dated very well, because it isn't directly exposed to the atmospere. an antler is pretty unique here, because it is a living, growing part of an animal that is exposed to the air. the guy that dated Kirt's buck is from the U of A and is highly regarded as one of the best at the business. some guys from some mule deer club or some deal in utah took the rack to him, not Kirt. the scientist drilled some small holes in it near the base of each antler, and used the dust from the holes for the sample. he picked the spots. Kirt wasn't even in the state. as i recall, he (the scientist) said he felt the animal was from either a year before or a year after Kirt said he shot it. but he said there is no way in heck that the buck came from the 40's, as you're claiming. there were a bunch of charts associated with the test that showed the carbon 14 concentrations for all the years since i think '45. again, the guy who is supposed to be that last word in carbon 14 said that buck absolutely did not come from then. he didn't really want to do the test because he is a scientist and didn't want to get caught up in some deal that didn't have anything to do with science. Kirt fretted for a long time before he let em take it, because he really figured he'd never get it back. say what ya want, science is science. what about the photos he has of the deer? Kirt is poor, remember. he wouldn't be able to pay anybody to dummy up the photos. besides, they didn't have computers and photo editors in the 70's. and Kirt's rack has never been repaired either. i guess maybe Duard Sanford was lyin' to me, too. he didn't have one nice thing to say about Kirt and was convinced that Kirt's deer used to be his. i asked him what he would say if Kirt's buck hadn't ever been repaired and he said if that was the case, then they weren't the same buck. and when a guy has shot as many big bucks as Darner has, bigger bucks than this, why would he risk so much on a fraud like that? oh yeah, chd says it's because he was poor. what a reason. "Kirt's poor so he lied about this big ol' buck". wow, that makes a lot o' sense. believe what ya wanna believe. i don't care. but don't try and say i'm less than intelligent for my views. i've weighed the available evidence and in my opinion, the scale tips Kirt's way real heavy. believe a controversy started by a child molester and propagated by some rich boys that had warned Kirt about trying to develop a scoring system different from theirs or believe a guy that has a ton of evidence contrary to theirs, that supports him. go figure. Lark.

[wetmule]

Lark,

There's always seems to be a way to spin it. From what research I've done in the past about carbon dating there are also many scientists that say the time frame for accurate dating is from 500 - 50,000 years. The one thing I do know about C-14 is that it cannot get into an antler by the antler being exposed to the atmosphere. It is ingested and put into the animals system through the plants it eats, and can only get into living tissue. Since antler is dead bone for six months of the year, that deer antler only has about a half of a year to accumulate all the C-14 of normal body tissue and bone, and not a full year. I wonder if scientists that carbon date antlers figure this into their equations and if they date antlers different from normal bone material. If they did, the antlers I think would be twice as old as originally thought. What I am saying is there are lots of variables to consider and there's even lots of scientists that don't buy into the theory of carbon dating and it's accuracy at all. You are obviously a good friend and that is very commendable, we should all be so lucky to have someone in our corners and sticking up for us as valiantly as you. Your mind is made up and that is fine with me. My mind is made up as well, I can tell you that my mind was made up not by the buck in question but other facts and circumstances that I'm sure you are not aware of. It is old news and history for me, and I will leave it at that.

[CHD]

Goooooooo Wetmule. Good, accurate info about carbon dating and scientists and life. I happen to be an educated scientist, and can definitely attest that science rarely is perfect and absolute. Just like you described, lots of old hat here tonite, partner. Brings back many old memories from 14+ years ago.

 

Lark, you definitely do have your mind made up and are just 'slightly inflexible', lol. But the old adage that 'a picture is worth a thousand words' rings true in this situation. I could write a book here in response to your arguments, but it's just not worth the time. I'm also not gonna post the photo, as some have requested.

 

One thing that should concern you Lark is if there are indeed two racks, why hasn't the other one ever surfaced in the 30 years since it was stolen??? Also, the rack was stolen in the mid '70's, and Kirt's Remington ad came out after 1980. So they weren't on display at the same time in both places.

 

But, enough. Just like Wetmule, I have much better things to do. Like pursuing the next chapter in my 'personal satisfaction' notebook where a big 'ol buck or bull dies.

 

Chris Darnell

Edited January 1, 1970 by CHD

[Rembrant]

CHD,

Are you an educated scientist like you were a rich guy a few months ago?

Mike

[Diamondbackaz]

Info on C14 dating http://www.c14dating.com/k12.html and also http://science.howstuffworks.com/carbon-14.htm

[CHD]

Rembrandt,

 

Rich guy????? Definitely no rich guy here. Only a run-of-the-mill, middle-class civil engineer.

 

Chris

[.270]

the guy who at the time was the final word in c-14 said it was definitely killed in the 70's and definitely not in the 40's. argue with him all ya want. he knows more than anyone here. so i believe him. and i believe Duard Sanford. and i believe the photos that Kirt has. and i absolutely refuse to believe anything started by a sick, perverted, child molester. Lark.

[wetmule]

270,

Like CHD, I too could write a book countering your argument, and I could counter it with substantiated evidence unlike your argument. Not only on the buck in question but with several others and no I'm not speaking of the desert sheep or the coues buck you spoke of earlier. Why would I or anyone take what you have to say as gospel. You think that C-14 can somehow enter a bucks antlers through osmosis?

Like I said earlier the Carbon dating theory does'nt hold water and proves nothing either for or against when this buck was taken. Like I also said earlier your loyalty is admirable but your lacking the real facts as CHD pointed out earlier as to when the buck was stolen or disappeared from AZ and when the Remington ad appeared. I don't think you really want to hear the truth and I'm not really trying to change your mind I'm just saying you are wrong. There are plenty of people here in AZ, Utah & Colo. and probably other places that are still around and active in the hunting world that can confirm just exactly why you are wrong. You claim to have done years of exhaustive research, you evidently did'nt dig all that deep in your research. Whatever, I'm out

[CHD]

You know, this really is a sensitive topic to me when it comes to big muleys. Why? Because Kirt Darner is the one who motivated me back in the '80's to get off my sorry, depressed, unmotivated, unhealthy butt and to develop, enjoy and succeed at a SUPER DUPER hobby. I think about him all the time as I spend my evenings looking at my great bucks (public land, unguided) from all over the west and planning out my next taxidermy bill. I wasn't fortunate enough to have a father with these hunting, muley or people skills. Kirt has been a VERY kind man to me, and Paula has just been a sweetheart. Kirt has offered me his sincerest advice (and he has been right!) every time that I have asked. Kirt is very modest, and is definitely not a braggert as many have claimed. He isn't an ego-maniac as most others in this trophy hunting thing. Kirt's advice is valid, just as he states in his book.

 

Lark (and others), listen hard to what Wetmule and I are saying about this issue. We are not after you, nor trying to break your spirit. Isn't it obvious that we both greatly respect Kirt's big buck hunting abilities, but cannot live with his dishonesty and deceptions for the purpose of $$$$$$$$$$$??? Why is this an issue with us??? Because Kirt mixed the incredible, deeeeeep, legitimate, hard-earned personal satisfaction of trophy muley hunting (which we believed he was in it for) with $$$$$$$$$$$. And Kirt needs to be accountable for that, forever. I live in Grand Junction, Colorado and maybe know things that even Wetmule doesn't know about Kirt's bucks and his history, and I am WELL networked in trophy muley hunting.

 

Kirt most certainly "hedged his bet", and wanted to make sure that he had enough credibility and fame to sell his articles, books, and lectures @ $5,000 a pop (15 years ago). He had 4 kids + a loser ex-wife and worked as a USFS worker for many years. He grew up and lived in northern NM and southern CO, same as my dad did. This is a poor, sorry-butt area for pay and success, trust me!!! But a great one for big 'ol fat-necked, pot-bellied, thick-nosed muleys with 200"+ racks.

 

Lark (and everyone else), why not promote Kirt's positive side which is his incredible knowledge of the habits and behaviors of 7-year old muley bucks??? His knowledge is the most in-depth of anybody, as far as I'm concerned. I have used my brain to harvest a number of big 'ol bucks, and will have to make space on my wall for the next one. I cow-called in 3 bulls last night (using the Carlton Estrus Whine, IT WORKED GREAT!!!) in the Utah Bookcliffs, and I rifle hunt there on the 18th. I have a 350-360 bull picked out, with a 320-330 bull as a second choice. Following that, I have a rifle hunt the first week in November for muleys in the same unit (I used 8 bonus points!), and have already located several 180-195 typicals. Believe me when I say that Kirt's motivation, advice, and positive attitude will be with me on both these hunts.

 

Chris Darnell

[wetmule]

CHD,

I basically have to second your thoughts on your above post. There were a few of us back then that really, I mean really looked up to him and considered him almost a god. For me it was no different, I couldn't have possibly thought any higher of a human being and I still hold he and Paula in very high regards. Absolutely fantastick people period. For me my dad introduced me to hunting big muleys and Kirt took an already strong love for these deer to a new level that has never wavered. I love all deer and all deer hunting, yes even coues, but for me there is nothing like just sittin there watching a huge muley buck in his natural habitat. Like all our heros, they are human and have faults and make mistakes and deserve to be forgiven. So that is what I've done and it seems that you have too. It was a tough one to swallow though and I guess that's why we have both responded so adamantly to our friend, 270. Good luck on your hunts this fall, wish I had a permit in my pocket. Like Kirt always said, you can't shoot a big one if you shoot the smaller ones first. I hope you get a big one. Good Luck

Wetmule

[.270]

well, Kirt ain't my hero. he ain't a god to me. never was. i've never even bought or read one o' his books. i have my own way of hunting that works real well. and why do you keep saying he "sold out"? don't understand that one. you think because he was raised up poor that he's a sell out? so he made some money of a marketable skill. who cares? sounds like a lotta jealousy goin' on here to me. he's a guy i know and converse with on occasion. but he did get screwed over by b&c. no 2 ways about it. you believe whatever kinda BS you want. i'll believe facts. and i'll say it again. the man who is the man with c-14, and i might add that he knows a lot more about this stuff than we do, says no way Kirt's buck came from the 40's and that it died in the 70's. Duard Sanford, who is the last guy listed as the rack in questions owner and a man i knew well, told me the rack had been smashed and repaired. Kirt's hasn't. and Kirt has photos of his deer. the 2 bucks are real similar, but they aren't the same. how did it get wider and grow more points? 'splain that one. and i refuse to believe that the child molester that started all this crap did it because he was a good citizen. he did it because he was jealous and a lousy hunter that couldn't shoot anything without a guide. you guys seem to want to inject a buncha rumor and inuendo about other situations into this. go ahead. i'm talking about one deer. nothing else. and i'll say it again, if it went to court, who would win? which direction does the evidence lean? take all your loyal friend crap and flush it. the b&c is a rich boy's country club that has a history of harming folks that won't march to their drum. all they have to do is cause a little doubt somewhere and a guy gets ruined. when their book is full of bogus garbage shot by the worst examples of "sportsmen" there is. screw em. so sit around and look at all your mounts and plan your next taxidermy bill. i'll just keep stackin' racks in the barn and fillin' my freezer. and knowin' that Kirt's buck is his. Lark.

[wetmule]

Wow, I thought De-Nile was the longest river in the world, guess I was wrong.

Lark you sure know alot about a guy who as you say you casually know and converse with on occasion. My guess is A. You are either the man in question here. B. A close relative. or C. A casual friend as you say. For your information this was'nt started by the so called pervert baby- raper you refer to. It was started by a friend of his who happened to be thumbing through some pictures the guy had, and quite by accident he recognized the buck in question. You can claim all you want that the God of carbon dating, the official last word on C-14 who's word above all others is to be believed. You can claim that the buck grew in spread and points and that the skull plate was smashed to pieces. You can claim the sky is green and the grass is blue, because that is what you are doing. I know the truth, CHD knows the truth as do countless others. The two bucks you speak of are ONE and the SAME.