Bradshaw Coues?

[Manamal]

I was just curious if anyone could explain to me why there are only very few coues in areas like the Bradshaw mtns. or similar ranges that look like there could be some coues.

[coueshunter]

Its a slow saturday and nobody answered so I will give it a try. I dont know and am to lazy to look at where the Bradshaw mountains are at but low densities of coues can be because the area is on their geographic fringe where populations would be lower or they could be getting pounded by lions. I know unit 23 a couple years back was tough hunting around cherry creek area, it was hard to find the quantities of deer like you see in the southern units like 33. The lions have pounded 23 more than some units and its harder to Lion hunt in 23 than many other units so less lions are killed so the deer get pounded. I have rambled but maybe these two issues are affecting the Bradshaw's.........hopefully someone who knows the area can respond and help figure it out........Allen........

[Arizona Griz]

Allen, I think you hit it on the head with the geographical fringe theory. There are Coues east of I-17 but very view west into the Bradshaws even though there is Coues type habitat. Many, many years ago it was very difficult to find Coues east of I-17 but the population has grown since that time and maybe in the future it will also in the Bradshaws.

[More D]

Where are the Bradshaw mtns?

 

 

 

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[Arizona Griz]

The Bradshaws are the mountains north of Lake Pleasant, south of Prescott and west of I-17.

[Rembrant]

Manamal,

It's a water thing. The southeastern part of the state gets more rain. The more north and the more west you go the dryer it gets. Unit 20 has fewer wt deer than unit 21, which has fewer wt deer than 22 and 23. The most whitetails are north and south of Tuscon where the monsoons begin sooner and stay later than everywhere else.

Mike

[111]

That sounds about right Rembrant. I've been thinking of why there arn't many or any coues there and couldn't come up with any. Sounds good to me, the lions and no water will take care of any deer herd.

[Mattule]

Good question I have thought alot about it myself but just cant figure it. I don't disagree with either theory but there are ALOT of mule deer in 20B and they need water too. There are also alot of lions but I would think mule deer would be easy pickins for lions more so than coues any way. Great another sleeples night.

Edited January 1, 1970 by Mattule

[Manamal]

The geographic fringe thoery makes total sense. Also there is no doubt that lions can really desimate a population of deer. Personally I don't spend alot of time in the Bradshaws, however a reliable source told me about a buck he saw there with a doe in Jan. He described this buck as " A big a** 3x3 with eyegaurds".

I read somewhere that on years of above average precipitation the coues will expand out of their "core" areas into new ones. Maybe after this drought cycle some deer from 21 will make the journey.

[donniedent]

Little tidbit for you guys. I found a 3x shed about 3 weeks ago in the Bradshaws. I think he'd go about 85 inches depending on the spread. (only found one) The real problem right now up there isn't lack of water (this year) they've had a ton, its water cahments and holes. The north end of the range has a few but compared to the size of the area I don't thinks enough. Lots and Lots of hikers too.

[Rembrant]

Annual rainfall is what a coues herd needs. And lions are a giant factor on the "fringe populations". It's hard to get started if you keep getting eaten. But why are there so many wt deer at Klondyke (units 31 and 32) when its the lion capital of the world?

Lions are a factor but not the main factor. These deer need consistant rain. The Bradshaws get some gully washers but not consistant rain like the southeastern part of the state gets.

Mike

[Redbeard]

It has more to do with the consistency year after year and the timing of the rain. There have been studies done comparing monsoon rainfall patterns with coues populations and the areas with the most dependable monsoons have the highest populations. When several good years come in a row they will expand their range but the farther west you go the less reliable the monsoons over the long term and so the fewer deer. Coues deer biology shows that their fawning time coincides with the monsoon. They are keyed into the plentiful food that comes in late summer more than in the spring. That's why our rut is so late too.

[Rembrant]

Redbeard,

Welcome to the site!

I always thought that the late rut had to do with the latitude/solar exposure, (not saying I know). Interesting point about the timing of the fawning and monsoons.

The natural design is incredible.

Mike

[Elmacho]

check out differetn parts of the country- deer often "rut" a different times.

 

AZ- dec-Jan, 6 mo later fawns are out- June- right at monsoon time.

 

In so cal, rut is in Aug-Sept, i think, fawns drop in february or march- our rain season.

 

colorado- Rut is late nov. fawns drop in May- thaw and green up time.

 

Gestation, I think, is 6 months.

They seem to know when to do their thing.

[billrquimby]

All:

 

Please allow me to toss another thought into this thread:

 

It is a fact that the farther south you go in North America, the later in the year the whitetail rut occurs.*** This is true until you approach the Equator, where whitetails with hard antlers can be found in every month, and there is no set month for the rut.

 

In South America, where our spring is their fall, the opposite is true. The farther north you go in South America, the less the rut is confined to a specific season. The farther south you go, the earlier in the calendar year the rut occurs.

 

 

Also, when North American whitetails and elk, as well European red deer, were released in the Southern Hemisphere, they instantly adjusted their rut to the "upside down" seasons. Red deer, elk and whitetails in New Zealand, for example, now rut in April and May.

 

Incidentally, some of you may be interested in knowing that there are more subspecies (O.v. couesi is just of more than two dozen races) of whitetails in Central and South America than in North America.

 

bill quimby

 

*** It also is true that whitetails are larger and heavier the farther north you go in North America, and the farther south you go in South America.