Guest AZ>NMcouesaddict Report post Posted July 10, 2007 Wow, where does one start. I think it may help in the long run that more non-residents received these tags, it shows there is a chance and that AZ G&F is not running a scam to get more money but keep the tags inhouse ( I hope). These tags were strictly for generating money, so everyone's dollar bill is just a green, regardless of where you reside. I have to agree with TLH on his comments about resident pride in the big game drawings. AZ has one of the tighter restrictions on non-resident tags but it never fails that many residents feel too many tags are given out to non-residents. Take a look at the forum for hunting in NM. Count how many AZ residents will be hunting NM coues this year. Unbelievable. Now imagine this in reverse, to the point of many NM residents talking about their AZ coues tags, and watch out. Imagine if all states held the same non-resident cap as AZ and you may appreciate the tags you do get as a resident a little more. At least you have a good alternative to hunt in neighboring states. Each year I apply for AZ, I feel as though it is for a bonus point, but I try. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coues 'n' Sheep Report post Posted July 10, 2007 Congrats to ALL the winners!!!! I sure wish I had gotten one of those phone calls!!! And to all those who did not win......and are cryin' about it....... Quit your bellyachin'!!! Pony up a few more $$$$ next year and maybe it will be you next year!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TLH Report post Posted July 10, 2007 One of my buddy's got the bear tag and he is so excited i think he will hyperventilate!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KGAINES Report post Posted July 10, 2007 I think the super raffle is great, it generates a ton of money, and anyone can win. I don't have a problem with the auction tags either, but this is a tag that an average hunter can get, and that is not to mention that even if you have already had a sheep or buffalo tag you can still win. Congrats to all the winners, have a great year of hunting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
desertsheep Report post Posted July 10, 2007 AZ>NMCOUES The reason there are so many Az boys hunting NM is because not enough resident's applied for coues. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azhuntnut Report post Posted July 10, 2007 One of my buddy's got the bear tag and he is so excited i think he will hyperventilate!! Terry, I called Mark to tell him he won the tag, and of course he thought I was playing a nasty joke on him. I had to send him the email to convince him. He was excited to say the least. I guess it looks like I will be doing a little more bear hunting this year. David Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SunDevil Report post Posted July 10, 2007 Congrats to ALL the winners!!!! I sure wish I had gotten one of those phone calls!!! And to all those who did not win......and are cryin' about it....... Quit your bellyachin'!!! Pony up a few more $$$$ next year and maybe it will be you next year!!! So I do not quite get how my post was seen as cryin' or bellyachin'. Isn't one of the purposes of this forum to generate discussion? That is what I was trying to do. How is stating my opinion and asking legitimate questions cryin' or bellyachin? I sent my money in and knew well ahead of time that the odds were slim. I logged in and entered my credit card number just the same. But as an AZ native and someone who personally believes there is something wrong with 6 of the 11 winners being non residents, I think I am entitled to my opinion without being called out as a cryer or bellyacher. In fact I would still have the same opinion even if I had been one of the winners. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SunDevil Report post Posted July 10, 2007 i think you missed a couple questions: The first question i would ask is how many auction tags went to non-resident hunters--the answer to that would be unfair to you. The second question i would ask is why is it any different that a non-res pay for a chance as anyone else? To answer a few of your questions--yes, it is ALL about money. Money that is used on habitat and specie specific projects--all of the money goes to the specie that the raffle tickets were sold from. The Super Raffle generated a ton of money and that is what it is for. I see nothing wrong in how this was done and i hope they continue to run it the same. My ticket had just as much chance as the other peoples--i just wasn't lucky enough to be drawn. Now, i have one question for you and anyone else that would like to answer it: Why is it just Arizona hunters that feel they are being slighted when something like this happens--i never hear a New Mexico resident complain about an Arizona hunter getting a tag and they didn't. I never hear a Wyoming hunter complain, or a Utah hunter--so what makes Arizona hunters so much more important than the rest of the west?? Flawed, no, i think it is as fair as our own draw to be honest with you--in fact, the odds were better last year. Terry, I noticed your response failed to answer some of my questions. As you are a professional guide I can see and understand your opinion. If I was in your shoes I would want as much money going to investing and protecting the resource I rely on to support myself. I no doubt agree that the money is put to good use. I only question whether the Super Raffle's primary purpose is to generate money. If it is than they are doing the right thing. If it is not than I think the people in charge of the raffle should revisit how they are administering it. You are correct in that your ticket had just as much chance as the other peoples. You personally did not have just as much chance as someone else who maybe purchased 2 or 3 tickets. Once again, I do not know how my post was taken as being "slighted". I most certainly do not feel that way. I am surprised at your response about NM, WY or UT hunters. All you have to do is go back and look at posts in the Hunting NM forum and you will find numerous comments about NM hunters questioning the number of non residents hunting in their state. Specifically, why they allow 22% to go to non residents while AZ only allows 10%. They can thank USO for that one. I personally had a cousin in UT who didn't talk to me for several months because he was so ticked when I drew and antelope tag on my third year of applying when he had been applying for many more years than that. I guess one of my last points and questions is if AZ has deemed it appropriate for the max number of non resident hunters to DRAW tags is 10%, why is it okay for 55% of the raffle tags to go to non residents? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SunDevil Report post Posted July 10, 2007 Wow, where does one start. I think it may help in the long run that more non-residents received these tags, it shows there is a chance and that AZ G&F is not running a scam to get more money but keep the tags inhouse ( I hope). These tags were strictly for generating money, so everyone's dollar bill is just a green, regardless of where you reside. I have to agree with TLH on his comments about resident pride in the big game drawings. AZ has one of the tighter restrictions on non-resident tags but it never fails that many residents feel too many tags are given out to non-residents. Take a look at the forum for hunting in NM. Count how many AZ residents will be hunting NM coues this year. Unbelievable. Now imagine this in reverse, to the point of many NM residents talking about their AZ coues tags, and watch out. Imagine if all states held the same non-resident cap as AZ and you may appreciate the tags you do get as a resident a little more. At least you have a good alternative to hunt in neighboring states. Each year I apply for AZ, I feel as though it is for a bonus point, but I try. DesertSheep was correct in what he stated in his post. Coues deer hunting is not as popular to NM hunters as mule deer hunters. Because of this, there are not that many NM residents who apply for coues deer hunts and the tags are left over and go to the non residents who do apply for them. I think I remember from the NM draw odds stats from last year that zero NM residents applied for the 2nd whitetail hunt in unit 23. I am sure the same was true for this year and thus the reason why there are quite a few non residents heading to NM to hunt coues deer in unit 23 this Nov. Personally, I do not believe too many AZ tags are given out to non residents. To the contrast, I agree AZ has gotten tighter towards the non residents with increased fees, max 10% cap and requiring the purchase of a license in order to apply. Are we worse than some western states? Maybe but probably not as bad as others. Have you ever noticed the non resident fee for sheep in NM? $3K. That is more than double AZ's cost of $1,400. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TLH Report post Posted July 10, 2007 i think you missed a couple questions: The first question i would ask is how many auction tags went to non-resident hunters--the answer to that would be unfair to you. The second question i would ask is why is it any different that a non-res pay for a chance as anyone else? To answer a few of your questions--yes, it is ALL about money. Money that is used on habitat and specie specific projects--all of the money goes to the specie that the raffle tickets were sold from. The Super Raffle generated a ton of money and that is what it is for. I see nothing wrong in how this was done and i hope they continue to run it the same. My ticket had just as much chance as the other peoples--i just wasn't lucky enough to be drawn. Now, i have one question for you and anyone else that would like to answer it: Why is it just Arizona hunters that feel they are being slighted when something like this happens--i never hear a New Mexico resident complain about an Arizona hunter getting a tag and they didn't. I never hear a Wyoming hunter complain, or a Utah hunter--so what makes Arizona hunters so much more important than the rest of the west?? Flawed, no, i think it is as fair as our own draw to be honest with you--in fact, the odds were better last year. Terry, I noticed your response failed to answer some of my questions. As you are a professional guide I can see and understand your opinion. If I was in your shoes I would want as much money going to investing and protecting the resource I rely on to support myself. I no doubt agree that the money is put to good use. I only question whether the Super Raffle's primary purpose is to generate money. If it is than they are doing the right thing. If it is not than I think the people in charge of the raffle should revisit how they are administering it. You are correct in that your ticket had just as much chance as the other peoples. You personally did not have just as much chance as someone else who maybe purchased 2 or 3 tickets. Once again, I do not know how my post was taken as being "slighted". I most certainly do not feel that way. I am surprised at your response about NM, WY or UT hunters. All you have to do is go back and look at posts in the Hunting NM forum and you will find numerous comments about NM hunters questioning the number of non residents hunting in their state. Specifically, why they allow 22% to go to non residents while AZ only allows 10%. They can thank USO for that one. I personally had a cousin in UT who didn't talk to me for several months because he was so ticked when I drew and antelope tag on my third year of applying when he had been applying for many more years than that. I guess one of my last points and questions is if AZ has deemed it appropriate for the max number of non resident hunters to DRAW tags is 10%, why is it okay for 55% of the raffle tags to go to non residents? Sun Devil, Being a guide has absolutely nothing to do with how i feel. I guide most of the time in New Mexico for someone else and when I guide here it is usually for the Hunt of a Lifetime. The fact is money is money and the animals don't care where it comes from--in fact, an elk or a Coues deer wouldn't know the difference between the New Mexico border and the AZ border. Do you feel the same about the Lotto we have here in AZ? I don't see a lot of AZ folks winning that thing yet the money is put to good use here in our state. Your post above does sound as if you think you are being slighted--it sounds like your bitter and upset that some out of state folks are coming here and spending a ton of money to do it. I don't think your crying or bellyaching but i do read irritation in your post--nothing more, nothing less. You have every right to ask the question, after all if you can't do that then we might as well fold our cards and go home. I would like to see how much money the non-res put in to this super raffle compared to AZ folks--wouldn't you? Lastly, my Dad has not been drawn in AZ for an antelope tag for over 20 years--never has had the chance to hunt them here in our own state but i took him to Wyoming and got to hunt them there. The people in Wyoming welcome out of state hunters with open arms and open cash registers--that is business and that is how the super raffle has been ran. Dad gets mad every time he hears someone get drawn for antelope here but he keeps putting in--what i am trying to say is that it is all a matter of luck to get drawn--nothing else. I spent enough on the super raffle to have bought an elk tag in New Mexico and have the gas money to drive there and back 4 times--i do not feel bad i didn't win because it is the animals that win with this and it is the animals that needs it more than you or i need a tag to hunt them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DesertBull Report post Posted July 10, 2007 what do people think about how they do it in Utah. Tickets are only $5, they are sold only to residents and you have to pick which species you are going to apply for because you only get 1 ticket. 1. Utah sucks. They raffle off 200+ tags that could have been in the general draw for everyone to apply for equally. They raffle off at least one tag from every limited entry hunt they offer. Consider the fact that they offer very few tags in the best hunts to begin with. (Something I wish AZ could comprehend). 2. Their raffle tags are not only sold to residents. Non-residents can and do buy them. The difference is, you have to be present at their banquet in order to buy them. That means traveling to SLC, buying a ticket to the show. Pay for parking, stand in line, etc. 3. I am about 99% sure you can buy as many tickets as you want. You only have to pick your species in the general draw. I have no problem with NR winning our raffle tags. Their money is going to help our wildlife. That's good. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muley62 Report post Posted July 12, 2007 Sundevil To answer your question, it is all about the money. Prior to the Super Raffle there was one elk tag and one sheep tag that were raffled. They both sold for 100-140K and now they sell for 140K+, next year they will break 150K IMO. Due to the huge amount of work and expense involved in running a raffle these individual organizations raffling a single tag other than sheep or elk just wasn't going to happen. By combining all of the species into one Super Raffle we were able to minimize the expense and raise raffle revenue from $200-250K to over $600K in just two years. At the same time every sportsman has a chance to win one of these tags. One thing you may not know is that every dime that is raised must go back into wildlife habitat work. We mailed 100k pieces of mail and managed over $600K this year and that cost alot of money. These bills are paid for by the proceeds from the Swarovski raffle package and contributions from the various conservation organizations. The money generated by these tags is administered jointly by the department and the species specific organization to ensure the money is spent wisely. BTW, If you are interested in joining the committee doing all the work call me. Chris Denham 480-219-1503 PS- Wildcats Suck! My blood runs Maroon and Gold! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstcoueswas80 Report post Posted July 12, 2007 PS- Wildcats Suck! My blood runs Maroon and Gold! only with a screen name such as Muley would we see such a remark! cats national champs in 2007 softball! back to back! woohoo!!! sorry, thats off topic! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatfootdoc Report post Posted July 12, 2007 SO more tags went to non residents, I think that is called THE LUCK OF THE DRAW!! Wait and see when the stats come out how many non residents bought the raffle tickets and I will bet that more non residents bought raffle tickets than the Azites did. If you want more of a chance buy more friggin tickets!! easy as that. Here we are whining and moaning about something that is only done to benefit the game and immediately find fault with it( in some cases). You could try to limit the non residents buying raffle tickets but I imagine it would be a logistical nightmare, how in the world do you know how much 10% is for instance, when you can buy the tickets up until the last minute, if there are more non residents than the cap because not as many residents put in do you refund some of the non res tickets and if so whose do you refund? Why dont you just let it work the way it is supposed to and be glad that enough people are willing to buy the tickets in Az to hunt and help support YOUR GAME ANIMALS!! After all that is what it is all about. Ok off the soapbox and congrats to those who drew and teaspoon of sugar for all of the sour grapers!!! ag Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
25-06 Report post Posted July 12, 2007 PS- Wildcats Suck! My blood runs Maroon and Gold! only with a screen name such as Muley would we see such a remark! cats national champs in 2007 softball! back to back! woohoo!!! sorry, thats off topic! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
