Shotgun patterning question

[slopoke36]

Will shotgun choke tubes affect POI?

[QhunterAZ]

Not enough to notice with bird shot. You can always check patern on a paper target to be sure.

[.270]

Answer me this, what good does it do to "pattern" a shotgun. folks always talk about it like it's a big deal, but it varies from shot to shot, load to load, ammo to ammo. there ain't anything you can do about it, so why does it matter? if you do end up with a hole in your "pattern", what can you do about it? if a bird is flying how are you supposed to shoot around any hole in your "pattern". just wondering, seen this mentioned a lot and seen a lotta articles about it in magazines, but could never figger out what difference it makes. a shotgun shoots how a shotgun shoots and there ain't a way to adjust anything to change it. i "patterned" one on the door and tailgate of this turd heads truck once and it did make me laugh and pissed him off, so i guess that was good. Lark.

[murfys69law]

Agree with .270. you can shoot a paper target and see where most of the shot is hitting at a certain yardage but the next shot will be totally different to a point. Pellets are gonna fly how they fly.

[willhunt4coues]

I had patterned my shotgun looking for a good turkey load. I was using a xtra full choke and tried hornady, winchester, and heavy shot. At 30 yards the hornady and winchester were about a 30" circle which imo sucks. So I bought a Xtra Xtra full choke and it helped a little on the horn and win but only by about 5 inches. When I tried the Heavy shot I got an 8" circle with 90% shot in the circle at 30 yards and 12" circle with 90% shot in the circle at 40 yards. For turkey loads I understand patterning but for bird you could only do so much. This helped me know what my range I could shoot out too.

[cramerhunts]

I spent quite a bit of time patterning my 11-87 this year with different turkey loads and chokes. I definitely think it was worth the time and effort as I was able to get a great idea of exactly what worked best and at what ranges I could count on the combination to effectively kill a turkey. I eventually ended up with a combination that had very little holes in it and was good out to 60 yards.

 

If you aren't changing anything (ammo or chokes) you aren't really gaining much on trying to pattern a scatter gun. As far as the OP's question I noticed very little POI change between chokes.

[PRDATR]

Not everyone mounts the shotgun the same everytime. So, even though the pattern can be about the same for a given choke it can be high, low or off to one side. Patterning will let you know where most of the shot is going.

Ever go and shoot doves and nail everyone of them and the next week only hit one out of four? Yeah me neither LOL

[Havasuhunter]

Pattering is most important for Turkeys and waterfowl. With steel shot for waterfowl an improved cyl tube can actually be tighter than a full choke tube because of the way steel shot reacts going thru it. You have to pattern just to know what choke tube to use with a specific load. With lead shot and upland hunting, I just changed tubes, depending of the situation and observe my results.

You'll be amazed how an upland load at 1300 FPS patterns great and one at 1400 FPS flies all over the place. When I reloaded for trap, I'd increase the speed until my pattern blew out, then back it off until it cleaned up. All wishin safe limits of course. We shot various games and a little extra speed, shortening your lead was important, but not as important as a consistent pattern.

[Phil Carr]

There are a few things that can be done to help you shoot your shotgun a little better and change the point of impact. There are many others that might be able to explain gun fit, chokes, patterning, and ways POI can be adjusted better than I can, but I'll share what I have learned from collecting SxS shotguns and shooting them. For the most part this applies to single barrel shotguns also. Now a days shotgun are built for one size fits all many times and with about 5 screw in chokes. This has been driven for the most part from the need to produce a reliable gun, that does all things for the average shooter at a good price.

If we look back to the late1800's to the say 1940's here in the USA things were a little different. Gun manufactures such as Parker Bros. and LC Smith, offered their customers the ability to order a wide range of SxS shotguns from the basic field grade guns to the finest engraved guns with exhibition grade woods. The one thing all grades had in common was the ability to have your shotgun built to your specifications. Barrel lengths, chokes, types of beads, sometimes types of ribs, extractors or ejectors, and early on Damascus or Fluild steel barrels.

Many customers would even call out the size of shot, and shells, or powders they wished for their guns to be patterned with. Guns were patterned to the percentage of shot in a 30" circle at 40 yards. Typically 70% of the shot would be full and on the other end cyl. Would be 40%. The manufacture would then shoot the gun and open the chokes until the customers specs were met.

They would also regulate the barrels due to these being SXS shotguns you want barrels to converge and have the same point of impact.

The next option that the customer had was the ability to have the Length of pull adjusted to their need. LOP is the measurement from the front trigger to the end of the butt stock measured to the middle of the butt plate. For example I shoot a shotgun best at 14". The other measurements that could be requested was DAH Drop at heel and DAC Drop at comb. These are the measurements if you layed a straight edge on top of the barrel and had it over hang the buttstock and took a 90 degree measurement down at the front of the comb and another at the heel of the buttstock it would give you this measurement. I shoot a gun best with 2 7/8" DAH and 1 7/8" DAC. One last option would be CAST ON or CAST OFF. Normally most guns were ordered with a straight cast, but I do regularly find guns that have come cast one way or the other. For me I shoot with 3/8" of cast on. So what is cast? It is where the stock is actually off set left or right. If you look down the barrel from the muzzle. ( without a doubt unloaded) sighting down the rib or barrel look at the buttstock. If it looks centered then it has no cast if you see it bends one way or the other it has some cast. Bennelli has actually put in some shims in the box with some of their guns. These offer you some ability to change LOP, DAH, DAC, and CAST.

Why are these Things important? We are all built differently, large, small, shoulder width, arm length, head size etc. one size does not fit all, no different then a Jersey.

I'm sure most of us at one point, shot a gun and even said, wow this gun fits me.

Now I think we shoot shotguns two different ways. One is the way we shoot a shotgun say at turkeys we "Aim". Looking down the barrel at the bead using it as a sight.That said you should sight in your shotgun in the sitting position you will be more or less in when you are calling the turkey. Usually a full choked fixed choke gun or a gun with a full choke Tukey choke is best. Get a few of your friends together and buy a number of different loads. Test them for pattern uniformity and density. Some guns and choke combinations just perform best with a certain load. The one that works for your friends may not pattern well in yours. I check POI ON my turkey guns at 30 yards. Use some large pieces of card board, or a roll of 36" painters masking paper. Put about a 2" dot in the center and shoot your gun. When you shoot stationary targets the bead is the front sight, your eye is the rear sight. If you think of it this way it makes sense. If you find your pattern is too low you need to raise the rear sight (your eye) so it shoots higher. An easy way to accomplish this is through the use of shims if you are fortunate enough to own a Bennelli or similar gun that provides shims. There are also a number of comb pads I believe Kickeez sp? Makes one. A search on the Internet will locate suppliers. If you add a comb pad it raises the eye and your impact be higher. You may be surprised by the difference it makes. Lowering the POI can be a little more of a challenge. If you can not shim but have a wood stock you can with a little skill slowly work down the comb, lowering your eye, and in turn lowering the point of impact.There are a number of options like adjustable combs as well. What I have done with my favorite shotguns, (wood stocks) and that is sending them to a gunsmith versed in bending buttstocks and for about $150-$200 get the gun bent to your dimensions. I will repeat I am only sharing what I have learned from my personal experience there are surly some highly qualified Trap and Skeet shooters on this forum that can chime in and share even more information on this subject.

I was nieve when I had a custom shotgun built. I had spent good money to have a gun built and simple built the gun to a standard specification. It was not until after I received the gun and shot it with disappointing results that decided I needed to find out why. With some research I determined that the gun just did not fit. I was traveling to Whicita regularly and found that there was a well known gun fitter by the name of Michell Murphy just out side of Whicita. I made an appointment and took my shotgun along. What I found out was very eye opening. The buttstock was a half inch too long.

At 16 yards I was shooting high and several inches to the side. The stock was shortened to 14" and the stock placed in a jig and heated with oil. This dropped the comb down 1/4" and imparted 3/8" of cast on. It took about a month and the gun was shipped back to me.

Where before the best I could do was 15 or 16 out of 25 at the skeet range, the first day I took it to the range I was shooting 22-23. Only change was getting the gun fit. This convinced me of the value of proper fit.

The truth is I am not a great skeet shooter and have never spent much time doing it. I do love shooting birds. That brings me to what I learned about the difference between shooting more or less stationary targets shooting a shotgun like a rifle, and shooting birds like quail. When you quail hunt most of your shooting is done on the flush. Hunting over my dogs I always walk in barrel up, and gun not mounted. When the covey rises my eye goes to the bird and I never see the bead on my gun. I usually shoot very well. It is only at times when I am shooting dove, and I see the bird coming a ways out I have problems. I mount the gun, line up the bead, take my time, and then miss.

It seems hard to believe, how did I miss. I think it is because I am looking at the bead trying to sight on this fast moving target. To me it's like baseball. When someone throws a ball to you you don't look at your glove and the line up the glove to catch the ball. You simply track the ball with your eye, and your mind and hand coordinate to catch the ball. You never even looked at the glove. Same thing happens or should happen when you shoot at a bird. You should see the bird and instictivly swing on the bird and pulling the trigger. Never looking at the bead. When a gun fits you you will find your success goes way up.

This is why you target your shotgun differently than you do with stationary targets. The best way is go to a skeet range that has a patterning grease plate. This usually consist of a steel plate about shoulder high with a center Mark, or a hole in the center. There is usually a paint roller with grease or white paint. You simple roll over the plate covering a previous marks from shot hitting the plate. I go back 16 yards, with out mounting the gun, and without aiming, just look at the mark, mount the gun quickly and shoot. I usually shoot 3 shots one right after the other, bringing the gun down and then repeating. You will soon see your POI. A general rule is for every 1/16" you move you DAH or CAST will move the impact about an inch at that distance. Some guys like their guns to shoot 60% high of center. I like mine even around the center.

As far as finding your length of pull, you can try different things. Wear the shirt vest that you will typically wear when hunting when you snap the gun to your shoulder if it hits your arm pit, or drags it might be a little long. If when you bring the gun up you been like you are needing to pull the gun back against your shoulder possibly it is too short. Try removing the buttplate or recoil pad to make it shorter, Slowly add some length using some cardboard shims and some duct tape if you feel it is too short. Or leave the plate in place and add shims to lengthen the pull. Play with it until when you snap it up it fits just right. Then take a measurement from the front of the trigger to the end of the stock. This will be your LOP. Stocks can be cut down very reasonably. As well as there are recoil pads that come in different sizes. Once you have done your range work and have recorded the numbers you can get your gun to fit you like it was made for you. Sorry if this is a little long, I just hope that I am able to share some information that might help out some members that have interests in this area. Also forgive me for any misspelled words or horrible sentence structure.

I will post a few records on some Parker shotguns I own that relate to patterning, and gun fit shortly.

[Phil Carr]

 

 

 

[PRDATR]

Phil I want to thank you for taking the time out to write up a detailed explanation of shotgun fit. I'm surprised that more manufacturers do not at least put some shims in with a shotgun, especially the more pricey ones.

A few years ago I went on the hunt for a new shotgun and wanted a semi. I would go in the store and shoulder the gun with my eyes closed a couple of times just to get a feel for mounting it comfortably. What I found was the one that felt the best had me needing to bring my head up off the stock just a tiny bit to get a good sight picture. I never did get a gun that year and have been staying with an old Model 12 which fits me perfectly and my eye looks right down the vent rib.

I had an old shooting buddy by the name of Mardy Kemmer who was very into shooting Trap and Skeet. One year he bought his wife a shotgun and took it to a smith who adjusted it to fit her. Do you know if there is anyone in AZ who does this anymore? I picked up a semiauto recently and would like to see about possibly having it check for the way it fits me.

When I shot HP Silhouette I bought a stock from H&S that had just the right amount of cast for me allowing my eye to align perfectly with the scope but I don't believe there are any stock manufacturers that offer that option any longer.

[Havasuhunter]

Lots of great info there. Thanks for sharing.

[jonesface]

PRDATR, I use Brett Hall out of Phoenix. He fit my Beretta o/u SP perfectly. He's very reasonable on price and William Larkin and Moore send all of their custom work to him. www.bhallco.com