Big Game Lethal Energy

[scoutm]

I've been looking at ballistic tables and it seems for the most part there's really not that much difference (+/- 2 or 3 inches, +/- 200fps) in velocity and bullet drop between the most common calibers - this is under 300 yrds. Where the real difference seems to really show itself is in the energy department. Does anyone have a good source for the energy required to make a clean/humane kill for different species? --assuming of course at shot is placed in the vitals of the animal.

 

I know I'm asking for a very complex set of variables to be boiled down to an over simplified number but I did read an article at one time that discussed this very question but I'm unable to locate it and I don't recall the details. I've done a google search and have come up empty. Any help would be appreciated.

[firstcoueswas80]

i have always read about 1000 lbs is what ya want.... if i recall, most modern calibers were 100-200 lbs over that at 500 yards.

[25-06]

Just go get ya a 25-06

[scoutm]

Just go get ya a 25-06

 

 

I am currently considering that choice but I'm concerned about the 300+ yrd energy...I want to make sure it has enough to knock them down at that range if you don't hit the vitals.

[BASS]

I have a book called "The Target Book for North American Big Game." In that book it gives almost every cal bullet from .223 Rem to the .577 Tyrannosaur. It lists long range deer rounds that carry atleast 1000 ft-lbs at 2000 ft/sec with their farthest reach while still keeping that energy. They also cover long range Elk, Moose as well as low recoil rounds for deer, elk and moose. The say that atleast 1000ft-lbs at 2000 ft/sec for deer, 1500ft-lbs at 2000 ft/sec for elk, and 2500ft-lbs at 2000 ft/sec for moose. The books comes from Sportsman's for $20, and is a neat books to look through. It also tells you a few of the impacts of each round at different distances. If you need a specific round I can look it up, and post back. It really all depends on the cals though. While quickly looking through I've found that for deer (1000ft-lbs) a 30-30 only holds that speed to about 105 yards. It's still lethal past that, but it has lost it's ideal 1000ft-lbs at 2000 ft/sec goal. While on the other hand the 7.21mm Lazzeroni Firebird falls out of the 1000ft-lbs, 2000ft/sec goal at an amazing 1040 yards.

[scoutm]

I have a book called "The Target Book for North American Big Game." In that book it gives almost every cal bullet from .223 Rem to the .577 Tyrannosaur. It lists long range deer rounds that carry atleast 1000 ft-lbs at 2000 ft/sec with their farthest reach while still keeping that energy. They also cover long range Elk, Moose as well as low recoil rounds for deer, elk and moose. The say that atleast 1000ft-lbs at 2000 ft/sec for deer, 1500ft-lbs at 2000 ft/sec for elk, and 2500ft-lbs at 2000 ft/sec for moose. The books comes from Sportsman's for $20, and is a neat books to look through. It also tells you a few of the impacts of each round at different distances. If you need a specific round I can look it up, and post back. It really all depends on the cals though. While quickly looking through I've found that for deer (1000ft-lbs) a 30-30 only holds that speed to about 105 yards. It's still lethal past that, but it has lost it's ideal 1000ft-lbs at 2000 ft/sec goal. While on the other hand the 7.21mm Lazzeroni Firebird falls out of the 1000ft-lbs, 2000ft/sec goal at an amazing 1040 yards.

 

 

Thanks for the info. I will look into getting a copy of the book. Does it say what is signficant about the 2000 Ft/sec? I would think 1000 ft-lbs is a 1000 ft-lbs regardless of the what the given ft/sec are at any point.

[BASS]

Thanks for the info. I will look into getting a copy of the book. Does it say what is signficant about the 2000 Ft/sec? I would think 1000 ft-lbs is a 1000 ft-lbs regardless of the what the given ft/sec are at any point.

 

 

I do not recall it saying why that is the minimum goal to meet. I was thinking about that the other day, and just came to the conclusion that if I got hit by an object with 1000ft-lbs at a very slow speed it would sure as heck hurt a lot, but if the same object hit my with a much greater speed it would surely kill me on impact. I'm sure that if the bullet dropped below the 2000ft/sec goal it would remain leathal much below that, but the range would also drop in relation. I'll look through it again today and try to find out if it does mention it. The book it'self if about an inch think or so, black with white letting, and a picture of a carp in the crosshairs.

[.270]

ok, one more time, forget about "knockdown". it has little to do with anything, as far as north American game, except maybe coastal bears. their may be times with browns that bone crushing, sledghammer hits might be real beneficial. but not with anything else on this continent. unless you hit the spine or brain, animals bleed to death. you ain't gonna knock one off his feet. bullet performance has a lot to do with how quick an animal croaks too. you want to be able to shoot far enough into an animal in a good place to cause it to bleed to death. the better the hit, the sooner it dies. i've seen horrible results with all copper bullets. they tend to die, but from what i've seen, not very fast. i've seen horrible results from gut shots and hock shots, etc. don't matter what you hit em with, a gutshot is a gutshot. nothing will kill one where you can find it, other than looking for crows a week later, with a gutshot. spend your time worrying about your marksmanship, your abilities, your skill, accurate loads that fit your rifle and don't worry so much about numbers in a book. any good hit is lethal. most bad hits ain't. Lark.

[Red Rabbit]

The 2000 fps probably has to pertain to a minimum fps to produce adequate bullet expansion.

 

Gotta agree with Lark that a gut shot deer is still gut shot even with a 300 Mangul-em, and poor shot placement ain't overcome easily by brute foot-pounds. The recoil of a more powerful rifle will most likely lead to poorer marksmanship.

Knockdown? Who was that Taylor guy?

 

RR

[BASS]

Knock down power is nothing at all IMO. It's pure physics, more accuratly Newton's third law. To have a gun knock the target down, the shooter would also be knocked down. That is, if the bullet was unable to pass through the target. To my knowledge there is only one gun that does that... the .577 T-Rex. With that gun, a gut shot will down the deer.

 

 

Can you imagine hitting a coues with one of those badboys?

[Red Rabbit]

Can you imagine hitting a coues with one of those badboys?

 

You'd have to imagine it... cuz you'lll be looking up at the stars from your kiester ,or seeing stars, when the bullet hits

[scoutm]

ok, one more time, forget about "knockdown". it has little to do with anything, as far as north American game, except maybe coastal bears. their may be times with browns that bone crushing, sledghammer hits might be real beneficial. but not with anything else on this continent. unless you hit the spine or brain, animals bleed to death. you ain't gonna knock one off his feet. bullet performance has a lot to do with how quick an animal croaks too. you want to be able to shoot far enough into an animal in a good place to cause it to bleed to death. the better the hit, the sooner it dies. i've seen horrible results with all copper bullets. they tend to die, but from what i've seen, not very fast. i've seen horrible results from gut shots and hock shots, etc. don't matter what you hit em with, a gutshot is a gutshot. nothing will kill one where you can find it, other than looking for crows a week later, with a gutshot. spend your time worrying about your marksmanship, your abilities, your skill, accurate loads that fit your rifle and don't worry so much about numbers in a book. any good hit is lethal. most bad hits ain't. Lark.

 

I completely agree with you - Marksmanship should be the goal too often it's not - a 100 grain bullet placed in the heart of an animal kills them just as dead as a 200 grain bullet in the heart. There are so many factors that go into marksmanship such as being comfortable with your gun, knowing the limits of your shooting ability, knowing your guns limits, taking the time to practice in different shoot situation, making the effort to get within your lethal range and not throwing that 500+ yard shot at a moving animal you busted out. That said, you still want to be sure you have enough gun to make a quick humane kill on an elk quartering toward you at 250 yards out 5 minutes before shoot light is gone.

 

I've used the same 270 for the last 14 years. Too often people will try to copensate for their lack of marksmanship by shooting bigger guns that have more knockdown power. I, however, am not one of them. I own other guns and I'm sure I will purchase more because it's fun to evaluate the quality and character of different rifles and calibers, however, becuase I know my 270 and I know my limits with it, it's the gun that is most often the gun on my shoulder come hunting time.

 

Where I can't agree with you is "most bad hits ain't (lethal)"...too many bad hits are lethal the animals just aren't recovered until the sun has had time to bleach the antlers out.