North Kaibab recommendations

[Red Rabbit]

The G&F Department is to recommend to the commission the changes that the youth hunt have 800 permits over two hunts in Nov (700 more than last year), add 400 to the early 12Awest for a total of 900, and add 150 to the early 12Aeast to a total of 300, and moving the season up two weeks to the middle of October.

 

The Kaibab is under an Alternative Deer Management Plan where it is to be managed for a harvest of older age class animals and reduced hunter densities.

The objective buck:doe ratio is to be a min of 20:100, and a 60+:100 fawn:doe ratio. Harvest of bucks is to be 55-75% 3+ year old bucks and 20-30% 5+ year old bucks.

 

Concerns by some outfitter/guides is that the increased number of early tags will result in a harvest higher than the department predicts of 30-35%, and killing many of the younger more vulnerable age class bucks still near summer range (more in the open pines), which would severely impact the number of older bucks in a few years. They advise against the increase in tags and the earlier season.

 

Last year the number of youth tags was reduced to 100 through the effots of the ADA. This year, in spite of an ongoing study and mention of keeping the Kaibab "status quo", the number of doe permits is being increased to 800 to occur in two hunts. The department says the westside herd has doubled in the past few years and the reduction in deer and breeding does is needed to protect upcoming habitat projects. A couple years ago, two winter rangeaerial surveys produced a population of 3800-6300 and, G&F reset their models, and now estimate 8000-9000 via the computer model. G&F estimated 4800 in 2002 and 6800 in 2004. No actual/real current population data is available. The fawn:doe ratio has been published as 76, 46, 65, 103, and 86:100 for the years 2001 to 2005 respectively. Buck:doe ratios have been 19, 18, 24, 30 and 23:100 for the years 2001 to 2005.

 

Some ADA members recently surveyed the winter and transition range. They found it to be in better shape than G&F says, with water catchments full, good greenup occurring, and few deer now on the winter range. Some 14-16" leader growth was reported on cliffrose, and less than the 60-70% useage (6-7 out of 10 stems nipped) noted by G&F. G&F just completed a study this week, but no data is available yet. No data was given on how far the cliffrose stems were browsed back, though.

 

As no detrimental impact to the winter range was observed, some recommend that the number of junior permits be reduced. They are in favor of youth hunts, but not at the expense of the Kaibab deer population.

 

Since G&F and ADA are in the middle of a multi-year study, I'd recommend against changes until the results of the study can be evaluated and objective changes implemented as deemed necessary. While current observation shows less need for herd reduction than suggested, no one can predict the weather in the next years. If protective changes are indeed needed, special management hunts can be implemented by the department.

 

As sportsmen and outdoorsmen, become involved and express your views to the department and commission via the website, surveys and at the various meetings (as in Saturday's commisioners meeting) in a polite, informed and persuasive manner.

 

Doug~RR

[stanley]

Great summary Doug!

 

At the ADA meeting the other night, your exact point of waiting until the joint study is completed to make any change was brought-up. Leonard basically explained that based on the current variables (fawn recruitment, buck/doe ratio, average hunter success, etc.) that the Kiabab herd is increasing fairly quickly. He said that the department's position is that based on the above mentioned variables, that even with the increase in doe tags, the herd would continue to grow. He said that the department wants to try to ensure the herd grows slowly/methodically so they can monitor the impact on the winter range as opposed to letting the herd get too big to quick (in their opinion....) before taking any action.

 

 

Regarding the specific point of waiting until the study is complete, their position is that as long as you can control the variables that the study will not be compromised (which from a logical perspective, I agree....).

 

This is going to be a tough one everybody! My peers at the ADA did a great job of lobbying last year for the reduction, and hopefully we can make an impact this time as well. My gut tells me that at best, we'll end-up somewhere in the middle of the 800-100 tags.

 

S.

 

[coueshunter]

Doug & Stanley, I seriously question this move by the department. I really cant see "sound biology" on this issue. I cant see where waiting for this further information and leaving the harvest quota the same as last year can be a bad thing. We know that the winter range will support the existing herd and we are waiting on further information from the joint ADA/AZGFD survey, so it really smells like a political issue of "increased hunter opportunity". I think its truly sad that we are allowing more "hunter opportunity" on the Kaibab with does instead of increasing the opportunity spread out among other units that arent currently under a comprehensive study...............I sure dont see some huge winter die off on the winter range if we leave the doe harvest level at last years level.............Allen Taylor.............

[DesertBull]

IF they want to give more youth tags, which I agree is a good idea, why not just give 3-5 either sex youth tags in every unit that does not already have an established youth hunt? That would have little tono effect on the population, let a lot of kids hunt, and save the Kaibab deer until the study is complete.

 

Either that, or take more of the general cow elk tags and give them to the youth. The kids don't care if they are hunting does on the Kaibab or cows on rim, they just want to hunt something.

 

Seems to me the dept has been riding this Bridger Knoll fire for many years. Time to quit beating that horse, it's dead.

 

The Kaibab herd is the most valuable asset the dept has, why are they bent on destroying it?

[stanley]

IF they want to give more youth tags, which I agree is a good idea, why not just give 3-5 either sex youth tags in every unit that does not already have an established youth hunt? That would have little tono effect on the population, let a lot of kids hunt, and save the Kaibab deer until the study is complete.

 

Either that, or take more of the general cow elk tags and give them to the youth. The kids don't care if they are hunting does on the Kaibab or cows on rim, they just want to hunt something.

 

Seems to me the dept has been riding this Bridger Knoll fire for many years. Time to quit beating that horse, it's dead.

 

The Kaibab herd is the most valuable asset the dept has, why are they bent on destroying it?

 

 

All four of your above points are spot-on DB!!! I especially like your idea of getting creative with the youth tags across the state, as opposed to turning them all loose on the Kiabab.

 

S.

[bowsniper]

I also asked Brian about this at the DCA meeting Tuesday night. His response was that they asked for 500 does tags last year but only got 100. So this they are increasing the request to make up for the tags that they couldn't get last year.

 

Mark

[Diamondbackaz]

I say get rid of the youth tag system and let them have equal chance at tags just like the rest of us. They already have many years ahead of them to draw tags.

[DesertBull]

I say get rid of the youth tag system and let them have equal chance at tags just like the rest of us. They already have many years ahead of them to draw tags.

 

Sorry, I disagree with that. Given the choice of taking themselves or their kids hunting, a lot of adults would choose to take themselves. Plus, it gives me another chance to get out of the city and into the woods! You do not have to be the one pulling the trigger to have an awesome hunt.

[KGAINES]

Guys and Gals I didn't write down the numbers, but they cut some of the kaibab tags back, only 400 youth antlerless tags and they changed the stratified hunts that they were trying to structure for this year and based this years hunts on last years numbers with some increases. They also moved the archery deer back a week to start on the 24th of Aug. and end on sept. 13th. that was a vote of 4-1 with commissioner hernbrode voting against it, commissioner mclean also proposed that there be no reduction in antlerless tags in 12A west and to leave the number at 800, hernbrode seconded, commissioner Martin, Melton, and Golightly voted against it killing that proposal. The one thing I did get out of this one and others who were there I hope will share their opinion, but it really seemed to me that Commissioner Martin listened to the public about these topics. I left at the lunch break ( I had to get my kids ), so I don't know how the rest of the meeting went, but I can hope for the best on the rest of the proposals.

I am basing this all on memory, someone else who was there and took notes might be more specific and correct me if I am wrong.

Nice meeting you Dave, sorry I had to leave in kind of a hurry.

Thanks to all that came.

[Red Rabbit]

From this morning's portion of the commissioners' meeting, three major hunt items were addressed resulting in the following:

 

1) The number of youth Kaibab doe tags was set at 400 and one hunt was set from Nov 9-12.

 

2) The early rifle hunts in 12a and 12b will be moved to Oct 26- Nov 4. 12ae will have 175 permits, 12aw will have 650 permits and 12bw will have 175 permits for the early season. Late hunt permit numbers and dates remained unchanged from the recommendations.

 

3) The archery deer season is to begin one week earlier and end the Thursday before archery elk opens; Aug 24-Sept 13 for those units with archery elk seasons.

 

4) The remainder of the the deer recommendations were approved as recommended bt the department.

 

I did not stay for the afternoon session. I surmised that the archery turkey and javelina seasons will be moved to agree with the new archery deer dates. The item of having the lion season closed for 3 months was also to be addressed.

 

I sensed that the commission wants to let the Kaibab herd grow more slowly so as to not dramatically impact the habitat/winter range and to allow for completion of the west side study before any major permit number changes accur. The west side habitat study director was aked if any changes to the permit numbers would invalidate the study data and results, and she said that they would not. They currently estimate there will be about 4000 does, 1700 bucks and 3000 fawns for this fall's hunt on the Kaibab.

 

Doug ~RR

[KGAINES]

Doug we asked whether killing the does would change the study results at the ADA meeting and got basically the same answer, I just wish they would do the study and then make changes.

 

But then again I can't say because I haven't read Russo's book.

[Red Rabbit]

Keith,

 

Thanks for attending and speaking this morning. Did you go order Russo's book. I'm unqualified also.

 

I would think that the best determination of the habitat might be made with a reasonably constant population, and not add another variable into the study of an increasing population. The moisture fluctuations can be big enough of a factor.

 

Doug~RR

[KGAINES]

That saw blade scale that they showed, tells me that they don't really know how to manage it for a consistant result.

[cramerhunts]

Keith I agree with your view about Martin listening and actually voting according to the puplic input, there for a while I didn't think anyone was going to second the motion for pushing the archery hunt back but Martin finally did.

 

I can't speak about the Kiabab either because I haven't read the book!

 

I can't believe how out of touch the commission is with the actual department and the hunting community and this was very apparent when they were talking about how difficult it would be to have some units open while others would be closed because it would have to be printed on the tag...I just about lost it on that one.

 

This was the first meeting that I have attended and thankfully by the time they got to me for my opinion all I had to do was agree with the second option but I was extremely disappointed with the ignorance of the commission with maybe the exception of Martin. I did however think that Leonard did a very good job with addressing the commissioners and letting them know how much public outcry the department had received.

 

I too left at the lunch break so I guess we'll have to wait for the rest of the story.

 

Phil Cramer

[HUNTMUP]

In my observations of the morning session, it seemed to me some of the commissioners are kind of removed from the overall process. I have not followed or attended the meetings for many years but I will make an effort to make them from now on.

 

It disturbed me to hear that one of the commissioners could not confidently name the unit numbers north of the river and still yet a second did not know what an over the counter archery deer tag looked like

 

I felt that there might be 1 or 2 commissioners that are in touch with the hunters prospective and I am not very confident with the others. Still feel like they are going to run this thing like a business with dept. revenue at the forefront of the objective. Still it was nice to see the turn out and Mr. Golightly seemed to try harder at resolving the issues than the others behind the "Big Desk".. Was not overly impressed with Leonard and the using of the "Temperature" change as a reason to keep the archery deer hunts starting a week later was a joke And that BS about the archery deer hunters mostly being in the woods the first 14 days of the hunt and that it should not effect the elk hunts was sickening! Does he really think that if it stayed the way it was proposed that many hunters would not change there plans and hunt during the elk hunt with friends and family??? I am not sure who stated to the commission about the buddy hunting thing but my hats off to him!! Right on target!! I am just glad that some compromises were met and things mostly are back to what most of us expected... I still have a small sliver of hope that the AZGFD will keep things as reasonable as possible and when they do make bone headed moves that the commission will listen to the general public and try to come to a compromise. I can remember back in the early 90's that many times with enough turn out by us hunters to address the commission at meetings like today that many times things were changed back or realigned to try an accomadate what we wanted..