G&F meetings last night

[ultramag]

nothing but negitive changes have they made any good ones lately?

[Dick]

I have to agree with Steve about his take on the presentation by Brian at the DCA meeting. The Dept. made the orginal proposal for these dates two years ago, they also realized that they had the elk hunts too late all away across the board. They asked the Commission for their permission,or direction if that is how you want to put it, to move the elk hunts one week earlier on the calendar. The Commission gave them direction to do that at the Dec. meeting in Phoenix.

The fact that the archery deer would overlap the archery elk was NOT an oversight. As a matter of fact it was part of the discussions with the Dept while we were trying to save the 1400 antlerless permits that were shifted over to general hunts. Leonard made those of us at the meetings with him aware that there would be that overlap. Our comments were that there might be some elk hunters unhappy with it, Leonards thoughts were that it wouldn't be that many units, if would offer some extra opportunity for elk hunters to take a deer and a turkey and that he really didn't think it would be that big of an issue. "Well, the Dept. has found out that it is a lot bigger issue than they thought it would be". They have recieved a ton of phone calls and e-amils stating outrage at the idea of the proposed recomendation.

 

Leonard will make the recommendation as it has been written but I know that they are expecting a great deal of resistance. It is important that if you have comments that you attend the Commission meeting, fill out a "Blue Slip" and if you don't want to speak, you can ask that your comments be read. Standing in front of the Commission is not a joyous thing but it isn't all that bad either. The important thing, the Dept has heard the outcry, that is why they attended the DCA and ADA meetings. They actually instigated those appearences!

 

NOW IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THE COMMISSIONERS SEE THAT SAME OPPOSITION! ATTEND THE MEETING, FILL OUT THE BLUE SLIP AND MAKE YOUR FEELINGS KNOWN!

 

Dick

[parothead]

Is the baiting issue also being submitted this year?

 

Travis

[Dick]

No, it hasn't even been mentioned officially but it was brought up in a conversation with Leonard. It is not part of the agenda for this hunt set meeting.

[KGAINES]

I believe that it is under discussion at the dept. right now and they will ask for public input on it in the near future.

As far as going to the meeting and speaking, I think if you wanted to you could get up there and state simply that you support the ADA, AES, DCA, or whatever organization you feel said how you felt, or you can get up there and say how you feel one way or another and let your voice be heard.

[hawkeye]

Mark I too was at your meeting and I went away with a different take. What Brian was trying to say is that the Dept was going to go ahead with their proposals and not offer the Commission an alternative. His reasoning was that many times when they offer alternatives it muddies the water and the Commission comes up with their own recommendations on what to direct the Dept to do. So the Dept will let the public outcry and the public speakers bring up their ideas and the Commission will amend the proposals if they see fit. Keep in mind that the Commission sets the direction for the Dept. A lot of people don't understand that fact, the commission gives the Dept direction and the Dept comes up with the proposals that they think the Commission wants to approve. Many times I see and hear sportsmen berating the Dept when it was the Commissioners telling the Dept what to do. I'm not saying that the ideas the Dept comes up with are good ones, but the blame for the direction for the AZG&F lies more on the COmmission than the Dept.

Steve

 

Well then the take I get on Leonard is that he is an arragant butt. I can't belive the dolt can't see the problem. That is what happens when you have an anit-hunter in control of things. It sounds like he doesn't care about all of the calls and letters, and he will do what ever he wants be damned everyone else in the process. I really thin the man is an anti_hunter and I hope everyone sees it. If he was a square shooter he would tell the commission he made a mistake and that they should listen to alternatives. Sounds like a man not willing to admit he made a mistake.

[dcarrot]

He's not an "anti", he's a hunter.

[hawkeye]

He's not an "anti", he's a hunter.

 

My bad. He sure doesn't sound like one. With the things he tries to push through. Maybe he is influenced by PETA of some other kind of tree hugger close to him. How long has he been hunting? Maybe he just doesn't know any better. I can't believe he thinks overlapping the deer and elk hunt is a good idea. And I really can't believe his statement that the public peception is why he is advocating doing away with salt blocks. Sounds like a PETA move to me. I don't hunt salt blocks but I do know the general public is not concerned about people hunting over salt blocks. Maybe animal rights activists might be concerned. And I think he is listening to them more than he listens to us.

[bowhunter4life]

Dick, I see you at the bottom of this post, your doing a great job. keep the faith brother, you sure sounded alot better on the phone today.mike

[Dick]

Believe me, Leonard is an active hunter, both rifle and bow. He is very proud of his heritage and the fact that he and his son share hunt camp.

 

Do I agree with the elk and deer hunts overlapping and some of the other issues we have had to deal with, no way! But that doesn't make him a tree hugger, anti-hunter or any thing else except for someone with a different perception of how things should be run sometimes.

 

Remember, the Dept was directed by the Commissioners to try to come up with a way to create "Hunt Oppotunity" to work more towards " hunter recruitment and retention". The Commission is Leonards boss.

 

One thing I think we need to remember that we can sometimes agree to disagree, fight our butts off for what we think is right, and if everyone is treated fairly and with RESPECT,we can come out of it with the knowledge that usually the issue is the point of disagreement, and it most often is not a personal thing with the person we are arguing with.

 

I have a lot of respect for most of the people that I have met within the Dept. I think they are there for the love of what they do and for no other reason. They could work for another agency, have less grief, make more money and have a brighter retirement! Why else would they stay there.

 

I have two freinds that are Phoenix police officers that would love to work for the Dept. Neither are qualified nor could they afford the pay cut if they were qualified! I personally think that is pretty sad!

 

Do I support the current proposals, no way, have I argued over Bull elk tags in the past? Yes, two years ago the victory was in the court of the hunters. The Commissioners listened to the outcry that we wanted our "Bull Elk Hunts Left Alone".

 

Last December our arguement over losing 1400 antleless tags to the general hunt went in favor of the generl rifle hunters.

 

You win some, you lose some, by Saturday noon we will know for sure on this one.

[hawkeye]

Believe me, Leonard is an active hunter, both rifle and bow. He is very proud of his heritage and the fact that he and his son share hunt camp.

 

Do I agree with the elk and deer hunts overlapping and some of the other issues we have had to deal with, no way! But that doesn't make him a tree hugger, anti-hunter or any thing else except for someone with a different perception of how things should be run sometimes.

 

Remember, the Dept was directed by the Commissioners to try to come up with a way to create "Hunt Oppotunity" to work more towards " hunter recruitment and retention". The Commission is Leonards boss.

 

One thing I think we need to remember that we can sometimes agree to disagree, fight our butts off for what we think is right, and if everyone is treated fairly and with RESPECT,we can come out of it with the knowledge that usually the issue is the point of disagreement, and it most often is not a personal thing with the person we are arguing with.

 

I have a lot of respect for most of the people that I have met within the Dept. I think they are there for the love of what they do and for no other reason. They could work for another agency, have less grief, make more money and have a brighter retirement! Why else would they stay there.

 

I have two freinds that are Phoenix police officers that would love to work for the Dept. Neither are qualified nor could they afford the pay cut if they were qualified! I personally think that is pretty sad!

 

Do I support the current proposals, no way, have I argued over Bull elk tags in the past? Yes, two years ago the victory was in the court of the hunters. The Commissioners listened to the outcry that we wanted our "Bull Elk Hunts Left Alone".

 

Last December our arguement over losing 1400 antleless tags to the general hunt went in favor of the generl rifle hunters.

 

You win some, you lose some, by Saturday noon we will know for sure on this one.

 

Ok so what you are saying is that he just doesn't care what a vast majority of the response is. He has gotten more negative feed back from this but it sounds like he just doesn't care. Why else would he just go ahead and stick to his proposal. Or is it that he is the kind of guy that won't admit he is wrong? What ever it is. when he said he is going ahead with his original proposal after all of the feed back in the opposite direction. It appearse that he is the problem not the commissioners. The commissioners rely on him to make sound proposals not half baked half thought out plans, and after hearing from everyone it sounds like he just doesn't listen or doesn't care. There are several negative aspects to leaving the overlapped hunts in place. Someone please tell me the positive position on this matter.

[Dick]

This whole system sometimes seems so extended that it is hard to follow or understand, even if you try to. Last Dec Leonard addressed the issue of the elk hunts being later than he felt they needed to be, even though he was the one that originally asked them to be the week later. From public comment and harvest reports, he knew they had made a mistake. The recommendations that they went to the Commission with in the spring of 2006 were to be for a two-year period, a change from the normal changing every year. That meant for Leonard to move the elk hunts a week earlier he had to ask the Commission to do that, give his reasons, and they made the decision. He made the recommendation! He could recommend that the archery elk and turkey be moved a week earlier but my understanding that he is not going to. He is going to explain his reasoning on Saturday and again let the Commissioners make the decision. I would love to see him go into the meeting and say that he did not think it was that big a deal but obviously, it was a huge issue to the archery community as was evident by all those in attendance at the meeting! Therefore, he has an alternative that he could offer to the Commission.

 

Does he? He probably does because there is always the possibility that he will be directed to make the change and the Commission will want to know "how". Leonard will be prepared.

 

Will we?

 

That might be the decision maker!

[hawkeye]

Hi Dick

I see you are logged in.

I really would like to see some kind of positive outcome from this. And I am sorry for putting down someone you obviously have respect for. I haven't met Leonard. But I have called him and I have never had him return a call. I did have Brian return a message I left for Leonard to call me back. The thing that set me off was when Amanda said that she talked to him, and he told her that the banning of hunting over saltblocks had come from trying to appease the publics perseption. Come on now. You know and I know that 99% of the non-hunting public doesn't even think about or even know if it is legal in AZ. Unless they are involved with animal rights activities that is. I called the Game and Fish Dept. a few years ago to ask about that very thing. It took quite a while for someone to find out. And they work for the Dept. So with that statement I began to get a good idea of what kind of guy he really is. Doesn't sound like a straight shooter to me.

[KGAINES]

Whether it is ethical or not has been argued on this forum a few times. I would also watch out for questions about salt and baits on an azgfd survey.

[Dick]

In a conversation last week, Leonard mentioned to me that bowhunters are coming into compliance on returning harvest reports. Some of the results of that are that they are finding that success in some areas is much higher than what they expected. Units 22 and 23 were two units mentioned in particular and that a good portion of that success was on whitetail. He has reports of a lot of bait activity in those units from wildlife managers and they feel that could be a factor. He said that harvest in those two units was nearing the success of the general hunt. On an average archery harvest has been considered to be around 6%, in 22 and 23 it must be considerably higher, I think that general harvest is around 15% but not positive. Could hunter density and the popularity of hunting whitetail with a bow be a part of that factor? I would think so.

I personally have not heard anything about public perception but that does not surprise me.

It seems as though we always have a topic of debate. This one could be around for a while.

I have hunted Texas and Kansas and in both of those states, baiting for deer is common prac