AZGFD Hunt Recommendations

[KGAINES]

Thanks Amanda

[CouesWhitetail]

here are the directions to the ADA meeting on Tues the 17th, 6:30 pm. Anyone may attend and we will be discussing the hunt recommendations with Leonard Ordway that night.

 

The meeting will be held in Room 109 of the University of Phoenix Campus on 46th street and Elwood. The building address is 4635 East Elwood St., Phoenix, AZ 85040. This is the 3 STORY BUILDING. This is the building on the EAST END of the campus.

 

From the WEST SIDE take I-10 East to 40th Street. EXIT 40th turn Left to the Second Right. This is ELWOOD. Turn right and follow to the UOP campus on the RH side. There are 3 large red building we will meet in the last building if coming this way.

 

From the EAST side, take I-10 to the State route 143 Exit. Take the 143 north to University. Exit University turn left onto University to the first stop light which is about 1 block from the freeway. Turn left and follow this to the UOP Campus. We well be meeting in the first building if coming from this way.

 

Parking is avalible all around this area. Please email me if you have questions or needed further directions.

[Dick]

In my conversations with Leonard he had also stated that he was really surprised at the outcry that he is getting over the overlap of elk and deer archery hunts. I reminded Leonard that at the Dec. meeting we were fighting over the issue of trying to keep 1,400 antlerless archery tags. We spent a lot of our time on that issue and that was where our focus was at the Dec. Commission meeting. Unfortunatly, the overlap in seasons was not addressed, although it may have been mentioned and fallen through the cracks.

My hopes would be that the Dept will consider moving archery deer and turkey a week earlier and it would more align with where it used to be. Prior to recent changes, we had been able to hunt archery deer through the first week of archery elk in units"where there was not an open elk season". I would like to see us get that back!

I will be at the Commission meeting.

Amanda had posted that Leonard would be at Desert Christian Archers meeting on the 19th, actually that is a mistake that I will take blame for, DCA is the 16th the same as ADA and I am sure Leonard can not make both. Maybe we could get Brian or someone else to attend DCA?

 

"Hunter Recruitment and Retention" are used a lot by the Dept. today, I am totally in agreement with them on that statement but at what cost? We only have so many tools to works with

[CouesWhitetail]

Dick,

 

I think you meant to say your meeting is on the 17th, not the 16th, right? It seems both meetings are on the 17th and Leonard will have to figure out how he wants to handle that. I assume Brian will go to one and Leonard the other, but that's up to them.

 

here are the minutes from Dec 2006, as posted on the AGFD website. Maybe you guys can find reference to the archery deer/elk overlap? The only thing I saw in briefly looking through it was Leonard saying he would fix and overlap in some other elk seasons.

 

http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/inside_azgfd/min...mMtgMinutes.pdf

 

Amanda

[CouesWhitetail]

Ok, here I finally found what I think he is referring to.

 

from the meeting minutes:

 

"The only substantial public input received regarding elk hunts since the last public guideline and

recommendation process was that the early general bull hunts were scheduled too late to take full

advantage of prime rutting behavior or bugling activity . As such, the proposed package deviates

from Commission approved guidelines by adjusting the early bull hunts (general, archery and

muzzleloader) one week earlier to address public desire relative to the prime elk rut hunt

opportunities ."

 

 

Amanda

[azyoung]

Another overlap issue is with the 36A Jr hunt. I know this does not effect a lot of people but last year and again this year the 36A Jr hunt starts the last weekend of the Nov general whitetail and the fall javalina hunt. That unit was extremely busy opening weekend of the Jr. Hunt and I know some general whitetail hunter did not like all Jr crew showing up their last weekend that in the past was an opportunity for a quite end to their hunt. I do not understand why you they would mix a Jr. hunt with two general hunts. If they are trying to recruit young hunters why have the Jr’s start their hunt when the hills have been pounded several weeks prior. The Elk overlap does not make sense to me or moving the archery hunt earlier if I remember right the last archery tag I had seemed like the rut exploded the last few days of the hunt. Thanks Jim and Amanda for the information!

 

azyoung

[Hunterdan]

The Kaibab and the areas North of the river are managed under the Alternative Mule Deer Management Plan. What this means is, these areas are managed to provide hunters a higher quality experience (less hunter crowding and a higher percentage of older age class animals). People don't apply for the Kaibab and the Strip to just go hunting, they apply for the opportunity that awaits them in the form of higher buck doe ratios, older animals and less hunter density per square mile.The same could also be said of the early rifle, muzz and archery bull hunts but I don't believe there is a management plan for elk similar to the Alt. Mule Deer Mgmt. Plan up north. I think the Dept. failed to distinguish and separate this fact when they conducted their survey and perhaps should have had a separate survey or somehow incorporated this into the one they conducted. There CLEARLY is a reason why there are so many applicants and why it is so difficult to get drawn for the hunts North of the river as well as many of the better elk hunts. The reason is the antler potential those units posess. The AZ G&F has clearly been a leader among the many Western states for many many years in making the most of the wildlife resources we have here in AZ. I'm all for hunter opportunity, but to degrade these hunts in the name of it is a mistake in my opinion, especially under the Alt. Mule Deer Mgmt. Plan. (I'm not saying they are). The Dept. need only look at the draw odds in the better units and the many thousands of applicants that apply, to understand that there is a gigantic block of trophy hunters out there that consistently apply for certain areas even though the odds are slim, and to discount their wishes, to keep quality hunt units in the mix would be a huge mistake and I think in the long run would would be a shot in the foot in the form of less and less applicants, if a three year old animal is the best a hunter can expect. Personally every single hunter I know would disappear and quit applying if the lure of the big antler challenge goes away. I hope the Dept. can find a balance because on the one hand they risk loosing a large segment of the hunting public while courting the upcoming hunter and trying to provide hunter opportunity. It is my opinion that the Dept. and the public is going to have to come to terms with the fact that the Dept. can't provide opportunities for everyone and to do what is best for the herds, and to me that is a good healthy mix of all age class animals.

Very very well said wetmule!!

Thanks Jim for all your time and for asking question to your Deptment about these concerns. For the first time in many years I actually think that the AZGFD might listen to the hunters on this one and change the Archery deer dates. I hope so. I cannot think of one sound reason for anyone involved that would justify the Deer and ELk hunts overlapping.

[gamespec]

Another overlap issue is with the 36A Jr hunt. I know this does not effect a lot of people but last year and again this year the 36A Jr hunt starts the last weekend of the Nov general whitetail and the fall javalina hunt. That unit was extremely busy opening weekend of the Jr. Hunt and I know some general whitetail hunter did not like all Jr crew showing up their last weekend that in the past was an opportunity for a quite end to their hunt. I do not understand why you they would mix a Jr. hunt with two general hunts. If they are trying to recruit young hunters why have the Jr’s start their hunt when the hills have been pounded several weeks prior. The Elk overlap does not make sense to me or moving the archery hunt earlier if I remember right the last archery tag I had seemed like the rut exploded the last few days of the hunt. Thanks Jim and Amanda for the information!

 

azyoung

 

I didn't like the overlap either, but for a different reason. I took my son to a "secret" spot during opening weekend (Sunday afternoon) of the 36A Jr hunt and when we were just about to our destination we met a guy leaving with a ~ 2yr-old whitetail buck in the back of his jeep. From my perspective, I don't want WT hunters in there when I'm trying to get my son on a deer. The reason for the overlap (and this applies to a lot of species and seasons in the state) is that you really run out of calendar space to fit everything in. As everyone reading this thread is now aware of, these hunts are all interconnected and moving one thing may seem easy but can cause all sorts of other repercussions. We try to get the kids in during a time of the year that is not too hot, not after all the other hunts, during a holiday so they have time off, etc. When you get a calendar out and try to lay all these seasons out and try to take into consideration all the misc considerations it gets very hard to avoid all overlaps. In the past we have thought that an overlap between a WT and MD hunt is less critical because they are hunting mostly different areas by elevation. Junior hunts have traditionally been mostly a mule deer hunt. Data from just this past year has shown that there is a recent shift in the species make-up of the junior harvest - juniors are taking a lot more WT now.

 

In 2001, the harvest from the GMU32 Junior hunt was 35% WT, but last year (2006) it was 53% WT.

In 2001, the harvest from the GMU36A Junior hunt was 34% WT, but last year was 68% WT.

Juniors in GMU33 last year reported a whopping 83% of their harvest was WT!

 

(See how important it is for you to return your post-hunt questionnaire? We can gleen all sorts of cool stuff from that thing.)

 

This means we will have to rethink our idea that the Jr hunts are basically "mule deer" hunts and will have to do a better job of keeping the junior hunts from overlapping with the WT hunts. For the fall of 2007, however, I would say we should leave it because as we saw here, making last minute changes to hunt structure can be problematic. Also, (and more important) the public meetings this summer all over the state are to get input for hunt structure changes like this. The best and most appropriate time to fix this Jr problem is during this next cycle for the 2008-09 and 2009-10 seasons.

 

JIM

[hawkeye]

In my conversations with Leonard he had also stated that he was really surprised at the outcry that he is getting over the overlap of elk and deer archery hunts. I reminded Leonard that at the Dec. meeting we were fighting over the issue of trying to keep 1,400 antlerless archery tags. We spent a lot of our time on that issue and that was where our focus was at the Dec. Commission meeting. Unfortunatly, the overlap in seasons was not addressed, although it may have been mentioned and fallen through the cracks.

My hopes would be that the Dept will consider moving archery deer and turkey a week earlier and it would more align with where it used to be. Prior to recent changes, we had been able to hunt archery deer through the first week of archery elk in units"where there was not an open elk season". I would like to see us get that back!

I will be at the Commission meeting.

Amanda had posted that Leonard would be at Desert Christian Archers meeting on the 19th, actually that is a mistake that I will take blame for, DCA is the 16th the same as ADA and I am sure Leonard can not make both. Maybe we could get Brian or someone else to attend DCA?

 

"Hunter Recruitment and Retention" are used a lot by the Dept. today, I am totally in agreement with them on that statement but at what cost? We only have so many tools to works with

 

I talked to Brian and he also told me that the overlap was addressed at the Dec. meeting. I read the minutes of the Dec. meeting and I hate to call someone a liar, but. The only mention of the overlap was mentioned for the limited opportunity hunts. Maybe I am missing it but I have been searching the minutes and I can't find where it was addressed.

[Coues79]

(See how important it is for you to return your post-hunt questionnaire? We can gleen all sorts of cool stuff from that thing.)

 

 

I wish AZGFD would make this a mandatory thing, even setting up a way to submit the info. online would be good too. We can clearly see that it does help for the management of the game or else you wouldn't be saying that it is a good thing to get them turned in.

 

If you offer all ways of reporting it; mail, online, or phone and you don't get it done, you don't hunt the next year. I think that would be a good thing. IMO.

[gamespec]

(See how important it is for you to return your post-hunt questionnaire? We can gleen all sorts of cool stuff from that thing.)

 

 

I wish AZGFD would make this a mandatory thing, even setting up a way to submit the info. online would be good too. We can clearly see that it does help for the management of the game or else you wouldn't be saying that it is a good thing to get them turned in.

 

If you offer all ways of reporting it; mail, online, or phone and you don't get it done, you don't hunt the next year. I think that would be a good thing. IMO.

 

We are talking about all those things. Make sure your comments like that get to the Dept and the Commission. The return rate for questionnaires is dropping slightly so there may be some changes in the future.

 

JIM

[kwp]

"Hunter Recruitment and Retention" are used a lot by the Dept. today, I am totally in agreement with them on that statement but at what cost? We only have so many tools to works with

 

I am also in agreement with the above phrase and I understand the Deptartments stance that you will not be able to recruit or retain hunters who do not have the opportunity to hunt on a regular basis but I question how you will be able to retain a young hunter who has the opportunity to go deer hunting every year but sees more hunters than they do deer and when they do see a buck it is never a mature buck. I feel that unless something changes this situation will be a reality in the near future (practically already is with the number of tags for the early whitetail hunts). I know that when I feel that I no longer have a reasonable opportunity to hunt mature bucks that I will go elsewhere to find this opportunity even if it means that that opportunity is much less often

[CouesWhitetail]

I talked to Brian and he also told me that the overlap was addressed at the Dec. meeting. I read the minutes of the Dec. meeting and I hate to call someone a liar, but. The only mention of the overlap was mentioned for the limited opportunity hunts. Maybe I am missing it but I have been searching the minutes and I can't find where it was addressed.

 

 

I posted the minutes along with the part that addresses the overlap of the seasons. Or at least it addresses that they moved the archery elk season. I posted it on page 6 of this thread this morning.

 

Here it is again (from the Dec 2006 meeting minutes)

 

 

"The only substantial public input received regarding elk hunts since the last public guideline and

recommendation process was that the early general bull hunts were scheduled too late to take full

advantage of prime rutting behavior or bugling activity . As such, the proposed package deviates

from Commission approved guidelines by adjusting the early bull hunts (general, archery and

muzzleloader) one week earlier to address public desire relative to the prime elk rut hunt

opportunities ."

 

I assume that is what Brian and Leonard are referring to...

 

Amanda

[SunDevil]

Hey Jim - thanks for all the input. I do have a couple of questions.

 

First - is the 138 deer sample from unit 31 really a valid sample size. I read your post in the other thread about buck to doe ratios but personally think 138 is a little low. I could be wrong - it has been awhile since I took a stats class.

 

Second - what is wrong with having the youth deer hunts in the southern units over Thanksgiving weekend?

 

Third - isn't the youth harvest percentages you listed a pretty good correlator/indicator to the health of the mule deer herds on southern AZ?

 

Thanks Chris.

[coues7]

We have turned this discussion into a 7 page discussion. We need to continue this effort on April 21st by attending the meeting in force.....maybe even this year than in the past.....and truthfully I feel that we can and will make a difference. Another thing someone should do is to record the meeting on video or tape. That way a discussion doesn't get overlooked.....its sounds like one did from the meeting notes Amanda has posted.

 

It actually sounds like we are somewhat unifying ourselves......and it helps when we actually have someone from the AZGFD (Jim) helping us dispell rumors and false info....this way we arean't just pissin' and moanin' for nothing.