AZGFD Hunt Recommendations

[111]

Hawkeye I never really thought about the poaching issue, but that could be a major concern to be addressed at the meeting on the 21st.

 

Now, what are the options? The elk archery season is set and final, as is the squirrel season so we can't do anything about those. The archery deer hunt can basically be truncated to end one week earlier on 9/13/07; or the whole archery deer hunt can be shifted one week earlier so it is the same number of days and would be 8/24 - 9/13. Be aware that shifting the whole archery deer season then means that the bear, squirrel, turkey, and fall archery javelina no longer coincide with the archery deer like they usually do, which could create some accidental violations from confused hunters.

 

Jim I like the option of starting the archery deer on 8/24-9/13. My only question is why couldn't archery turkey be at the same time as archery deer?

[KGAINES]

I believe they could move back all of those that were not set when the elk hunts were set. I don't know if any were set at that time, but I am sure jim or someone knows and will answer that question.

[gamespec]

Jim I like the option of starting the archery deer on 8/24-9/13. My only question is why couldn't archery turkey be at the same time as archery deer?

 

The fall Turkey and bear can be changed April 21, but these hunts are placed where they are for different and important reasons. When we start messing with these interconnected hunts it always snowballs and we end up with a lot more unforseen problems like the one we are trying to fix here.

 

JIM

[GameHauler]

Jim,

I would like to thank you for braving this group and giving use some answers as to why#&^$(&^

I have some mixed feelings on the Overlap but the poaching part of it really concern me.

I am not going to put my .02 in at this time I just hope you will continue to visit this site so that we may talk about other issues when this topic calms down.

Topics like opportunity vs quality and the online application

Thank you again

Mike

[coues7]

AZGFD Game Spec (Jim),

 

Thank you for stepping up to the plate on this matter and getting answers......I think all of us are now beginning to see some of the issues that WE.....YES WE as hunters have created for ourselves......some of us (some archery elk hunters) spoke and the AZGFD listened. This may not have been what we expected but we asked and the AZGFD gave. It appears that we are getting for exactly what we asked for.

 

All of us,

 

Like Jim has stated we need to be careful what we ask for because we may not realized the repercussions at the time we ask. We may ask for one thing....get it and it may end up affecting 10 other things.....either positive or negative. This is a great example for us all.

 

Someone here or from the ADA should start a poll here on the site in regards to the way we would like to see things and let everyone (us hardcore gus on CW.com, MM.com, AZchat.com etc) vote.....and discuss. That way we could UNIFY and actually view the pros and cons to each ACTION we would like to see taken. That way when those of us attending the April 21st meeting can go and voice our opinions.....because apparently the AZGFD IS LISTENING.

[Huntn coues]

Jim,

I would like to thank you for braving this group and giving use some answers as to why#&^$(&^

 

I second that as well.

 

Thanks for your time.

 

PS -If you PM me I will give you all my info for the tag getting list and I can also give you the info on some of the

people that you would like to put on the NON TAG getting list.

[wetmule]

The Kaibab and the areas North of the river are managed under the Alternative Mule Deer Management Plan. What this means is, these areas are managed to provide hunters a higher quality experience (less hunter crowding and a higher percentage of older age class animals). People don't apply for the Kaibab and the Strip to just go hunting, they apply for the opportunity that awaits them in the form of higher buck doe ratios, older animals and less hunter density per square mile.The same could also be said of the early rifle, muzz and archery bull hunts but I don't believe there is a management plan for elk similar to the Alt. Mule Deer Mgmt. Plan up north. I think the Dept. failed to distinguish and separate this fact when they conducted their survey and perhaps should have had a separate survey or somehow incorporated this into the one they conducted. There CLEARLY is a reason why there are so many applicants and why it is so difficult to get drawn for the hunts North of the river as well as many of the better elk hunts. The reason is the antler potential those units posess. The AZ G&F has clearly been a leader among the many Western states for many many years in making the most of the wildlife resources we have here in AZ. I'm all for hunter opportunity, but to degrade these hunts in the name of it is a mistake in my opinion, especially under the Alt. Mule Deer Mgmt. Plan. (I'm not saying they are). The Dept. need only look at the draw odds in the better units and the many thousands of applicants that apply, to understand that there is a gigantic block of trophy hunters out there that consistently apply for certain areas even though the odds are slim, and to discount their wishes, to keep quality hunt units in the mix would be a huge mistake and I think in the long run would would be a shot in the foot in the form of less and less applicants, if a three year old animal is the best a hunter can expect. Personally every single hunter I know would disappear and quit applying if the lure of the big antler challenge goes away. I hope the Dept. can find a balance because on the one hand they risk loosing a large segment of the hunting public while courting the upcoming hunter and trying to provide hunter opportunity. It is my opinion that the Dept. and the public is going to have to come to terms with the fact that the Dept. can't provide opportunities for everyone and to do what is best for the herds, and to me that is a good healthy mix of all age class animals.

[aztrophytakers]

The Kaibab and the areas North of the river are managed under the Alternative Mule Deer Management Plan. What this means is, these areas are managed to provide hunters a higher quality experience (less hunter crowding and a higher percentage of older age class animals). People don't apply for the Kaibab and the Strip to just go hunting, they apply for the opportunity that awaits them in the form of higher buck doe ratios, older animals and less hunter density per square mile.The same could also be said of the early rifle, muzz and archery bull hunts but I don't believe there is a management plan for elk similar to the Alt. Mule Deer Mgmt. Plan up north. I think the Dept. failed to distinguish and separate this fact when they conducted their survey and perhaps should have had a separate survey or somehow incorporated this into the one they conducted. There CLEARLY is a reason why there are so many applicants and why it is so difficult to get drawn for the hunts North of the river as well as many of the better elk hunts. The reason is the antler potential those units posess. The AZ G&F has clearly been a leader among the many Western states for many many years in making the most of the wildlife resources we have here in AZ. I'm all for hunter opportunity, but to degrade these hunts in the name of it is a mistake in my opinion, especially under the Alt. Mule Deer Mgmt. Plan. (I'm not saying they are). The Dept. need only look at the draw odds in the better units and the many thousands of applicants that apply, to understand that there is a gigantic block of trophy hunters out there that consistently apply for certain areas even though the odds are slim, and to discount their wishes, to keep quality hunt units in the mix would be a huge mistake and I think in the long run would would be a shot in the foot in the form of less and less applicants, if a three year old animal is the best a hunter can expect. Personally every single hunter I know would disappear and quit applying if the lure of the big antler challenge goes away. I hope the Dept. can find a balance because on the one hand they risk loosing a large segment of the hunting public while courting the upcoming hunter and trying to provide hunter opportunity. It is my opinion that the Dept. and the public is going to have to come to terms with the fact that the Dept. can't provide opportunities for everyone and to do what is best for the herds, and to me that is a good healthy mix of all age class animals.

Very well said wetmule. There is a huge base of both res and non-res TROPHY hunters. As tag numbers continue to creep up more and more every year it makes me very sad to see once great trophy areas continue to go down hill in the name of hunter opportunity. The deer in AZ have been the meal ticket of the AZGFD for so long that some areas would be incapable of ever returning to what they once where , even if they did start a proper manangement strategy. Anyone that says the AZGFD manages for the best interest of the deer herd is sorely mistaken. I know of several units south of the canyon that have all yielded trophy quality mule deer in years past. Today you would need unlimited scouting days and a huge amount of luck to even locate a 6-7 year old buck. Which does not make them a trophy. And another thing , the AZGFD continues to increase tags in the last trophy areas az has to offer , 13a and 13b. They age the harvested bucks every year with teeth. Even if the tooth study produces a result of 5-7 year old bucks making up the majority of the harvest does not mean there is room for more tags. Just because a buck reaches maturity by no means is he automatically a "trophy buck". With all the technology that has come to be in the last ten years to aid the trophy hunter , trophy buck harvest is at an all time high in these units. As the last trophy units that AZ has ,why the heck can"t the AZGFD just leave well enough alone. I will quote someone elses taglinein saying "AZGFD is the downfall of arizona hunting". There is alot of truth in this statement. As wetmule stated there needs to be a balance between opportunity and quality. Let them keep increasing tag numbers and all the hunters in favor of "more opportunity"now will start bitchin about seeing no deer and lots more hunters. I am done with my rant and thanks for listening.

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

Thank You, Jim. It has been nice to atleast hear other side to the story. Your patients is remarkable considering the ranting and raving we have done on here. I have several friends that are WM's and they are just like you.... trying to make the best they can out of the situations at hand. It is not the guys (and gals) in the field that are truely responsible for making these things happen.... you all do the work and are often over rulled by the Powers To Be... Many WM's that I know are just like us... trying to preserve the Holy Grail of the West....Arizona's trophy hunting. But, all the people at the top are only interested in the "one dimensional" models and stats that come across their desks.... and are not looking at this state as a Three Dimensional reality. You can survey and get any results you want if you word the questions right..... And this whole over lap deal is a joke.... I mean Really.... You can't tell me that no one bothered to think about having to "tweek" on the deer hunt dates as well as the elk hunt dates to make this thing work??? It almost seems like a classic..... "Okay, you want it????? You got it!!! Now what????" Duped by the desk jockies.... again! None the less, Jim, thanks for the block of time you have spent with us on here. I ,for one, appreciate and respect the hard work done in the field by AZGF Wildlife Managers and the Biologists. But will not respect or trust the judgement & work done by the decision makers behind the closed doors of the AZGF. I just really believe their agendas are NOT as solid as the AZGF of years past once was. And frankly, I feel quite helpless about it......

[KGAINES]

I also want to thank you Jim for your viewpoint and insight, Leonard Ordway was also very informative when I talked with him. At least in what I have heard there is a good possibility that the overlap can be fixed.

[huntnhabit]

Yes, by all means call Leonard Ordway and waste your time. He's very good at listening and then instantly blowing you off. He dosen't even try to act like he cares about listening to you. He just wants you to shut up so he can forget about you sooner!

 

Mark

I think he just turns off his hearing aid.

Bob

????? Bombs?? Leonard does not get paid enough to stand for this crap. I for one have heard all the nasties before. Lets here a solution to the problem along with the complaint.

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

Yes, by all means call Leonard Ordway and waste your time. He's very good at listening and then instantly blowing you off. He dosen't even try to act like he cares about listening to you. He just wants you to shut up so he can forget about you sooner!

 

Mark

I think he just turns off his hearing aid.

Bob

????? Bombs?? Leonard does not get paid enough to stand for this crap. I for one have heard all the nasties before. Lets here a solution to the problem along with the complaint.

 

 

Nobody said anything about "bombs"... dude... ... We would, however, like to see bit more "Bang" for our "Buck" from the AZGF commission. Not this apparant "bumbling around in the dark" they are doing... as they try to reinvent the wheel. Maybe they are right and we are Totally wrong.... but how are we to know that? We are on a "need to know basis"... they tell us what they think we need to know..... If the management plan is that good, why doesn't anyone who isn't a AZGF employee understand it??? PLEASE ENLIGHTEN US!!!!

[bowhunter4life]

I also want to thank you Jim for your viewpoint and insight, Leonard Ordway was also very informative when I talked with him. At least in what I have heard there is a good possibility that the overlap can be fixed.

 

 

 

Guys we have having Leonard come to our monthly meeting, desert christian archers this tuesday 7:00pm at calvery church I-17 cactus for an open " talk" about theses changes. All are welcome to come.mike

[CouesWhitetail]

Leonard must be very busy....he is supposed to be at the AZ Deer Association meeting this Tuesday evening (the 17th) also! Not sure how he will pull off being in two places at once....I will try and get some clarification from him on this and let you guys know.

 

Amanda

[CouesWhitetail]

Just got confirmation from Leonard that he will be attending the AZ Deer Association board meeting on Tuesday the 17th. I think the meeting will start at 6:30 pm and be held at the Univ. of Phoenix. I will post the room number and directions when I get them.

 

The ADA board meetings are open to the public and this might be a good opportunity for any of you guys to come and ask Leonard your questions directly.

 

 

(note: he said he will be attending the Desert Christian archers meeting on thurs the 19th)

 

Amanda