AZGFD Hunt Recommendations

[KGAINES]

Jim

 

Thank you for your time.

 

 

I have to say I see no reason to overlap these seasons, most people apply for these archery elk tags thinking of them as a unique hunt for elk in the rut, now they will have to compete for watering holes with turkey and deer hunters, not to mention the fact that there will be more people in the field diminishing the hunts a whole. I am beginning to feel like the azgfd does whatever they want no matter what the cost to the individual, and yes I talk to a lot of people that don't ever check any websites and they don't agree with it either. Just to keep it simple, the statement that perception is reality can definately be used here, what I see as a hunter is the reality. When I go to a commission meeting and see the commissioners blow off the sportsmens groups I really wonder why these groups keep supporting tha dept and their projects, these groups bend over backwards for the azgfd to only get stepped on when it matters. The azgfd wants these groups to spend money to prove what they think is right before they will listen to them, and sometimes that don't even work. These groups represent a lot of hunters and even more than representing hunters they represent and have in their groups the people that do the work on these projects and volounteer their time to help the azgfd, and the perception is that they are not listened to by the commissioners. When these groups do a survey it is thrown away as not scientific or does not relay the feelings of the majority, when we all know that it does, and again the perception to me and others is that the commission don't care what these groups think and that disheartens me the most.

[coues7]

This is an awesome thread......I think we should be at the meeting tonight to see what is going on in southern AZ......for those of you in northern Az go to the flagstaff meeting. There is one other meeting.....I just don't know where.

 

Again thanks Jim!

[gamespec]

I'm getting off here then, because I need to get materials together to look at tonight. When I came in the office today I noticed a big (new) sign on the door saying that weapons are not allowed in the building. All I can say is "Perfect Timing!"

[out2hunt]

thanks for being honest.I wouldn't expect you to know about areas outside your area,at least not well enough to speak on them.I however agree with the last post on the date changes.Archery keeps moving later and elk just moved back to its 05 dates.The g$f decisions are also affecting there own operations and the sucesses there of.How in the heck to plan on catching poachers when you just opened the flood gates to multiple tags for multiple species in the same area.Isn't it going to be harder to "keep track"of everyone in a particular unit when the numbers can vary by so much.Units 1 through23 are all subject to excessive traffic due to deer and elk and turkey all living in basically the same area.BEWARE G&F!!!You are lifting a huge rock and there are bound to be some "bugs"coming out to play!This is truely the poorest set of decisions made by G$F that I have witnessed yet.Hope there are some bulls left for when I do draw a tag.Poachers are a comin!!!AND YOU GAVE THEM THE SMOKE SCREEN!!!!!!

[KGAINES]

Here is the agenda for the azgfd meeting.

 

http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/inside_azgfd/age.../April20-21.pdf

[25-06]

Dangit guy's, Aint I told you ya cant beat a dead horse......Jeeze

[KGAINES]

Here are some thoughts:

 

What is ADA's position on the archery deer hunt and on the increase of tags as a whole?

 

Where is the suryey report and statistics that warrant the tag increases they are recommending?

 

The kaibab deer herd is at an all time low and we are slaughtering the does when they are extremely vulnerable. (taking the bread out of the basket) Also keep in mind all the does that are wounded with jrs shooting at them. There are not even 800 deer, let alone bucks in unit 7 for example? Colorado is known right now for producing the best mule deer hunting in the US and guess what, there are hunts with surveyed herds that have buck to doe ratios over 30 per 100 with populations over 18,000 and guess how many tags they issue?????????????????????????? Less than 2500 including doe tags. This is just one example of many. They actually manage their herds, they have worked hard to get where they are at and should be commended. Why cant our G&F look at the success of others and implement it??? Nope instead they give out more and more tags and decimate the herds. Our kids are going to have nothing but quail to hunt if they are lucky.

 

Why are they proposing to shorten the mt. lion season 3 months????

 

What AZGF is doing is out of this world. Why they propose this BS is beyond me. For an agency that is supposed to be serving those that enjoy wildlife, they are doing a piss poor job and screwing the wildlife and those that enjoy it. I just want to ask them why???? WHY? ??? WHY???

 

Where are the surveys to justify this nonsense???????????????????????????????????????????

 

They have no explanation because what they do does not make sense.

 

Oh yeah, and why is it they cant just make decisions that make sense and benefit wildlife and those participating in the hunts?

Why do we have to continue to fight and struggle with them on the BS that they pull??

 

The ADA will be meeting on next tuesday and I am sure this will be heavily discussed topic, as of right now the ADA as a whole has not stated its position on this that I know of. I know I am very disappointed in what is proposed, but that is my personal opinion.

[cmc]

Good thing Jim's got thick skin... Geesh...

 

Jim, I personally thank you for sheding light on the issue.

 

Cheers,

cmc

[CouesWhitetail]

here are the results of the latest AGFD hunter opinion survey.

 

AZBigGameDrawSurveyReport.pdf

 

 

And here are the questions as they were presented:

AZ_Hunter_Survey.pdf

[Red Rabbit]

There were 7 people at the Flagstaff meeting, plus 3 G&F members. Rather informal but a good open discussion.

 

Concern was raised about the overlap of the archery deer and elk seasons. Hope th commission changes the season dates. No valid reason for the overlap was given.

 

The increase in the number of Kaibab tags was basically attributed to wanting to keep the herd in check while winter range improvements/plantings have a chance to establish themselves. Fawn: doe ratios was given at slightly over 100:100 for this year. Concern was made that the earlier October season will catch the bucks up on top in bachelor groups and result in a good kill of the deer, predicting greater than harvest objectives and detrimentally affecting the future age class structures.

 

The 3 month closure of the lion season is during time when lions are not normally harvested anyway, and is thus a moot politcal closure. Point was made about not being able to train dogs by pursuit though.

 

The October whitetail hunt in 6a was split to reduce hunter crowding. Last year, 6A WT hunter success in Oct was 17%. First year it was 6%

 

The theme of increased opportunity was evident in the discussion. The idea that he survey was canned in its questioning was stated by the audience.

 

RR

[HUNTMUP]

I am all for increased opportunity however by overlapping the archery deer / archery elk hunts will only decrease the overall hunter success rates for elk and I am sure as most would agree lead to a less than exciting hunt. In turn the lower success rates will allow the department to issue more elk tags for the archery hunts for sure. Please keep in mind that "more" tags only means a less than quality hunt. No more archery bull hunts with a success rate of 30% or much more in certain units. The game and fish department allocate the tags based on the carrying capacity of any given unit and have a very good idea of how many animals it wants to harvest to maintain long term goals. For those of you who want more opportunity by increasing tags just take a look at Colorado for example. Many elk units in Colorado are over the counter unlimited tags and for those of us that have hunted there (myself 3 times) the quality of the hunt, animals and the opportunity for the average guy to harvest an animal let alone a mature animal are very, very slim...... All that is going to be accomplished by this is more tags and thus more money for the game and fish (maybe to help pay for there new facility at Ben Avery???). I have always had confidence in the AZGFD unit the last couple of years and if you take a look at the suggestions and the actions evrything leads to less tags in the higher success rate hunts ie: December coues hunts, archery and trophy bull hunts and more tags in times when the anticipated success is very low. By moving in this direction they can issue many more tags to harvest the same amount of animals. I truly believe if the hunt structures as proposed passes it will only be the start of worse things to come... I sure hope that everyone tries to be at the meeting on the 21st to show your feelings. I will be there for sure and if it still stays after everyones input against the dates, I for one will have lost all hope for the future of our hunts and for those of our children...................

[HUNTMUP]

Sorry I still have one more comment.......

 

 

We need to realize that when the AZGFD say they are focusing on "increased opportunity" this means they are looking for more revenue for the dept. Don't kid yourself that they have your best interest at heart. Think before you answer this one.................... Do you want to go hunting every 3 years for a bull elk in archery season and have to contend with a @#$%% of archery deer hunters and a poor (in the teens if your lucky) chance of even harvesting a bull or would you rather wait a few more years at a chance at a truly "quality hunt" ???????? I am serious when I say everyone needs to really think this whole thing out. If we do not stand together we will all fall no matter what your individual views are and we will ALL suffer.................

[missedagain]

The thing that most concerns me in these new recommendations is the "address continuing social concerns".

 

The g$f is admitting that they are letting anti-hunters influence game management.

 

If the g$f takes away 3 months of lion season this year to appease animal rights activits what are they going to give them next year?

 

I believe this issue of removing hunting opportunity purely for animal rights activist and not for sound management is way more important than giving out some extra deer tags or overlaping some seasons. You may not think so right now but this could be a very slippery slope, just wait and see what we are left with after a few years of giving in to these people.

[gamespec]

Excellent post Red Rabbit - thanks for sharing that information. Proof that questions beat ranting any day.

 

I'm hoping someone with a lot of experience hunting Colorado for years will jump in. That state was (now I'm REALLY out of my backyard) over-the-counter deer tags for a long time and only recently started to limit the harvest with a draw -- like AZGFD has been doing since 1971. Colorado's B:D ratios have come up in just the last few years. According to Bruce Watkins (Colorado Div of Wildlife): "All deer licenses in Colorado became limited in 1999 because of concern about declining deer populations and low buck:doe ratios. Prior to 1999, most licenses for antlered deer had been unlimited and issued over-the-counter. As a result of limitations, the number of deer hunters in Colorado dropped from an average of 185,300/year from 1980-1998 to 84,400/year from 1999-2005 and statewide harvest dropped from an average of 64,000 deer/year to 36,600 deer/year during the same periods." The hunters are not unhappy with the new system from what I have heard, BUT (this is important!) even with this frightening drop in the number of tags, all or almost all hunters get to go deer hunting each year. This is a major difference from AZ. We have somewhere around 40,000 people that can't go deer hunting each year.

 

Dr. Watkins continues: "Even so, demand for limited deer licenses in many units has remained relatively low. In most units, hunters have an opportunity to draw a deer license without preference points. Some Colorado deer hunters appear to have shifted to elk hunting, where unlimited licenses are still available, whereas others appear to have stopped hunting big game in Colorado altogether." The big question in my mind is "where did those 100,000 hunters go that no longer hunt deer in CO?" (185,300-84,400). In my opinion, the slippery slope for our kid's future is maintaining a conservative harvest so less people can harvest older bucks. We need to get more of those 40,000 out in the field if we are to keep hunting strong and preserve our heritage. In my personal opinion, opposing an increase in deer tags so you can kill a bigger buck is selfish and not in the best interest of hunting in the big picture (there, I did my part to keep this thread going strong!)

 

When the department used the nation's leading natural resource human dimensions company to survey a random sample of hunt applicants, the results showed that just getting a tag was more important than getting a mature buck. That is the same result they have found in state after state when they asked that question (asked basically the same way). That company (Responsive Management, Inc.) is considered the leader in this sort of thing and their methods and statistics are state of the art. I know there's a lot of discontent about that survey among some people, but the methods are rock solid and the quesitons are what I see used all over the country.

 

I am the Chair of the Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies' "Mule Deer Working Group." This is a group of one mule deer expert from each of 23 western states and Canadian provinces and we won the Wildlife Management Institute's "Touchstone Award" last year for the work we have done for mule and black-tailed deer. In my many and frequent discussions with all those deer experts across western North America, I am always struck by how well AZGFD is respected as a leader in the West when it comes to managing deer with current data. There are other states that do some things better than us, but we really are seen as one of the best. I've worked for, and close to, other state agencies and I am so proud to be with this outfit.

 

Again, I would encourage anyone with "issues" as they say, to call the local regional AZGFD office and ask some "How come you....?" questions.

 

Jim

[bobbyo]

Jim,

I think if G+F would give scientific reasons when major changes to tags or hunts are made it would go a long way to eliminate the ill will toward the G+F. Game and Fish is a public entity and should be obligated to inform the people about the status of our wildlife. Why should we have to call or go to a meeting to find out why they are raising kaibab deer tags by 900.This is the internet age! When a proposal like this is made why can't there be an explanation of the logic behind it. If the decisions are scientifically derived it should be easy to place the numbers next to the proposal. " The B/D ratio has rasied this much blah blah, so we are proposing 900 tags." As you can tell with most of us the health of the wildlife herds come first. The misstrust comes in when these decisions seem to be made in secret. I think the G+F would be better served if it improved its openness and communication with its stakeholders. In reality we are not customers and Arizona is not a big gameranch. We want to work with G+F as partners, it is all of our wildlife.