Long Range shooting

[couesarcher]

I need some help with a decision,

 

I now own a Remington 700 model .270 with a 22 inch barrel. I shoot Remington 150 grain, core-lock bullets with it (factory ammo).

I have not shot at distances beyond 300 yards. I'm not real sure of what the ballistics are past 300 yards.

My decision comes with at 400 or up to 500 yards what are the ballistics going to be? Obviously I need to shoot at those distances and see how much drop there is.

Is this gun big enough for Coues deer at 500 yards? Is there enough velocity and energy at that distance to drop these deer?

I’ve always herd the magic number of 2000 ft per second when it comes to velocity and energy.

Do you think if I change the barrel to a 24 or 26 inch barrel this would better my odds with this gun, as far as increasing velocity and knockdown power or do I look at getting a different rifle?

There is also the cost factor involved, a new barrel if this will fix my issue or a new gun which I believe will be more costly.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

Terry

[TAM]

Here's a link to a website with a pretty good ballistic calculator that you may find helpful.

 

http://www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx

 

With a 130 grain bullet at 3100 fps muzzle velocity you should still have over 2000 fps at 500 and over 1000 foot pounds of kenetic energy which is more than enough to kill a coues deer. My biggest concern would be your hold over. You're looking at between about 26 inches and 32 inches of drop at 500 yards depending on what distance you zero in at (between 200 and 300 yards). If you were to use your current set up you would need a good scope with either some sort of mil dots, a TDS style reticle like Swarowski's, or a ballistic compensator knob like the Kenton Industries. Then it just takes a lot of practice to get comfortable at those distances.

 

A longer barrel is a possibility, but the best estimates are usually 25-50 fps per inch. You'd really only be looking at gains in the 100 fps range so it's probably not worth the money spent. Spend the money on some reloading equipment and you can probably get the same gains with a hot load. JMO

 

Good luck and have fun!

[coues7]

If you hold over and hit anything buck at 500+ yards it was pure luck. BAD idea when it comes to ethics. Get some turrets! The website that TAM recommended is a good one for getting your ballistics. Depending on who manufactures the bullet your shooting you should be able to go to their website and get the BC (ballistic coefficient) and then go to the website TAM recommended and get your drop chart and energy at the respective yardages.

[bowsniper]

Ditto on what TAM and Scott said. A new barrel won't buy you much. .270 energy should be fine out to 500 or 600 yards for a coues. As Scott said, get yourself some turrents, and make your self a field card for ranges out to your max range. Basically, you laser range your target, check your field card, and dial in your elevation turrent. A bullet is amazingly consistent with drop, even with altitude and humidity ignored. To make a field card, you calculate your drop with any of the ballistic calculators around, and then use these calculations to get on paper for your field tests. You can use the mfg. specs for speed and ballistic coef., but if you have a chronograph to make your own measurements, you will be much closer. Then go out and tweek your field card by actually shooting the distances. Sometimes the ballistic calculations are off a little, but usually they are pretty close. Now you can just range, dial in your elevation turrent, and shoot with a very accurate drop. But there is one little problem called wind, and windage adjustment is a little tougher. The ballistic calculations for wind are pretty accurate, but the hard part is guessing the crosswind component at the target.

 

Have fun, dropping an animal at over 500 yards is a real rush!

 

Mark

[couesarcher]

What are turrents? I'm not sure what these are.

 

This is all about finding what the limits of my rifle are. Just because my .270 can shoot out to 500 or 600 yards, doesn't mean I can shoot that far. I understand that I also have limits on how far I can shoot ethically. But practicing at these distances can only make be a better shot.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

Terry

[shortpants]

If you want reliable info you need to shoot the rifle at the ranges you are inquiring about.

I agree 1000% that hold over is not the way to go. Your rifle is plenty capable of shooting out to 500 yds. but your scope needs to be upgraded.

Shooting a 130 gr. bullet you will stay above 1000 ft. lbs. of energy out to 650 yds.

Once you have the scope sighted in properly out to 100 yds. you are ready to find your drop info.

This is what I do...

Take a 4x8 sheet of plywood out to where you can safely shoot 500 yds. Make some legs out of 2x4 to prop it up.

Make sure it is not a windy day or you are wasting your time. Put a dot towards the top of the plywood.

Aim at the dot while shooting at 200, 300, 400, 450, and 500 with the scope still set at 100 yds.

Shoot 5 shot groups at each distance checking the target in between each range.

Take a marker and a tape measure with you.

Figure out where the middle of each 5 shot group is and measure down from the dot ( your aiming point ) to where the middle of the group is.

This is your real drop at those yardages. DO NOT RELY ON BALLISTIC CHARTS OR COMPUTER PROGRAMS!

Keep in mind your groups will spread out the farther you shoot. Perfect shooting would be 4'' @ 400 yds. and 5'' @ 500 yds. That's what they call MOA or Minute Of Angle shooting. Most likely you won't be shooting this good.

After measuring each 5 shot group mark out the holes with your marker so you don't confuse them with others.

 

What ever yardage you can consistantly put all your lead into an 8'' shoot n see target should be your maximum range for hunting purposes but keep practicing those long range shots.

[.270]

first off, take all your "knockdown energy" numbers and chunk em in the trash. a .270 at 2000 yards has more "knockdown" than a bow and arrow and folks kill coues with them all the time. "knockdown" really and truly doesn't have a lot of real use when you're trying to determine what gun to use. for anything. if you're hunting charging hippos or capes, you better use a real big gun and you better have some big wayvos to stand there and not get antsy. doesn't matter how hard it hits per calculations. it does matter where you hit it. by the same token, you don't need a really big gun to kill a coues buck. but again, it does matter where you hit it. if you wanna shoot a long way with a .270, the 150gr isn't the best choice, unless you want to invest in a calibrated scope. they're a couple grand. it will be real accurate, but it will drop like a dirt clod tossed by a girl. a 22 inch barrel will restrict you some too. 24 and 26 should be anyone's minimum, for any bolt action north american big game rifle, in my opinion. my kids have some amazing results with 100 gr bullets on coues in .270's. i use 140's for everything, cottontails to elk. and it's been so long since i changed to that weight that i can't even remember why. one bullet, one powder charge. i have one powder throw and one set of dies dedicated to just my rifle and i never change them. i really wish someone would make a 120 gr .277 diameter spitzer boattail. from my experience, coues are really hard to kill at long ranges because their vitals are so small and it's really easy to gutshoot one or hit a leg, and not get the lungs, heart or liver. bullet weight will have little effect on the end result. a gutshot is a gutshot. a lungshot is always fatal. doesn't matter how big the bullet is or what type it is, especially at long ragnes. you need to be able to shoot really accurately, i mean really accurately, if you want to kill one past 400 yards, consistantly and cleanly. there is no amount of talent, intelligence, gear, gizmos, calculations, experience, etc. that will overcome poor marksmanship. Lark.

[bowsniper]

first off, take all your "knockdown energy" numbers and chunk em in the trash. a .270 at 2000 yards has more "knockdown" than a bow and arrow and folks kill coues with them all the time.

An arrow does not kill with ""knockdown energy", it kills with cutting and bleeding. You cannot compare the kinetic energy of a bullet to an arrow, because a bullet kills with hydrostatic shock, and an arrow kills with cutting tissue and the resultant bleeding.

 

A turrent is a calibrated knob on a scope that allows you to make a precise adjustment for windage and elevation. The goal is to calibrate the numbers on the elevation turrent to different ranges. Then for example, say you range an animal at 450 yards. You check your field card that you have made, (either by trial and error, a computer program, or both) and the chart indicates that you need to set your scope elevation to 7.75. Then you dial your elevation turrent to 7.75, make adjustments for wind, put the cross hairs on the vitals, and if you are a good shot, the bullet hits the vitals.

 

You will need a good scope, probably 4x to 20x, with turrents. Expect to spend at least $400. Then you also need a good base and rings.

 

This is all about finding what the limits of my rifle are. Just because my .270 can shoot out to 500 or 600 yards, doesn't mean I can shoot that far.

I agree, but the thread out talking about shooting out to these ranges, so you will have to practice.

 

Shortpants is right about the 4 by 8 piece of plywood, I have done this myself out to 800 yards. But I disagree with him about ballistic calculators. If you have good data for the speed and BC, the calculations will be very close.

 

Mark

[shortpants]

Hey Mark,

 

I would say most of the time you are correct. If you know how fast your bullet is going you should be able to get a pretty good idea of its ballistics out of a loading manual or a ballistic program.

 

That being said I have personally experienced inconsistant results while applying these methods.

 

I am very picky when it comes to long range shooting. I like knowing for certain that if my bullet is not hitting where I'm aiming at then I am the weak link.

just my .02 cents

[bowsniper]

Shotpants,

 

All of the problems I have had ballisitc calculations have come from inaccurate BCs. I have never had a mfg. BC come close to being the actual BC. Also, the bullet BC varies with speed, so for the best accuracy, you have to use a different BC for different speed ranges. I have used a chronograph at 100 yard increments out to 5 or 600 yards to back calulate the BC over different speed ranges. Having said all this, your way of getting the data with a 4 by 8 sheet of plywood is much easier. It's just fun for analytic geeks like me to calculate this stuff out.

 

Mark

[shortpants]

Wow, you've dived deeper into this stuff than I ever had the patience to. That's very interesting to know about the factory BC. That explains why I could never get as accurate with the ballistic charts as I needed to.

Like you said my way is a lot easier and I'm all about easy.

I have to keep everything basic and once I find something that works I never change it.

Thanks for the lesson Mark, I just might be asking you some questions in the future.

[25-06]

first off, take all your "knockdown energy" numbers and chunk em in the trash. a .270 at 2000 yards has more "knockdown" than a bow and arrow and folks kill coues with them all the time. "knockdown" really and truly doesn't have a lot of real use when you're trying to determine what gun to use. for anything. if you're hunting charging hippos or capes, you better use a real big gun and you better have some big wayvos to stand there and not get antsy. doesn't matter how hard it hits per calculations. it does matter where you hit it. by the same token, you don't need a really big gun to kill a coues buck. but again, it does matter where you hit it. if you wanna shoot a long way with a .270, the 150gr isn't the best choice, unless you want to invest in a calibrated scope. they're a couple grand. it will be real accurate, but it will drop like a dirt clod tossed by a girl. a 22 inch barrel will restrict you some too. 24 and 26 should be anyone's minimum, for any bolt action north american big game rifle, in my opinion. my kids have some amazing results with 100 gr bullets on coues in .270's. i use 140's for everything, cottontails to elk. and it's been so long since i changed to that weight that i can't even remember why. one bullet, one powder charge. i have one powder throw and one set of dies dedicated to just my rifle and i never change them. i really wish someone would make a 120 gr .277 diameter spitzer boattail. from my experience, coues are really hard to kill at long ranges because their vitals are so small and it's really easy to gutshoot one or hit a leg, and not get the lungs, heart or liver. bullet weight will have little effect on the end result. a gutshot is a gutshot. a lungshot is always fatal. doesn't matter how big the bullet is or what type it is, especially at long ragnes. you need to be able to shoot really accurately, i mean really accurately, if you want to kill one past 400 yards, consistantly and cleanly. there is no amount of talent, intelligence, gear, gizmos, calculations, experience, etc. that will overcome poor marksmanship. Lark.

Lark maybe he just needs to get a 25-06 Hey Terry, hows it been going? Shoot me a p.m.

[.270]

he said he is shootin' deer, not chipmunks. ain't the .25/06 made for chipmunks?

 

"knockdown" is a theoretical number that pertains to one moving object hitting another stationary object and the amount of force the weight and speed of the moving object exert on the stationary object. if it did what some folks seem to think it did, a .30/30 would knock a coues deer into the next unit. penetration and expansion are what kill animals with a bullet. unless you hit the spine, an animal bleeds to death after a good shot. the type of bullet you use has probably more ot do with the amount of shock transfered to the animal. when you're talking real long ranges, nothing hits real hard, and even if it does, it's still just numbers on a paper. if a bullet has say 2000 lbs/ft of "knockdown" at a given range here is way to correlate it. hang a 2000 lb weight from a rope. shoot it. the bullet should make the weight swing a foot. when you shoot an animal the bullet is entering it and slowing down drastically as it penetrates, scrubbing off the energy in the animal. it doesn't knock it down. it tears it up and it bleeds to death. basically the same thing an arrow does, only with some more capillary destruction. if "knockdown" was real, 2000 lbs/ft of energy would throw a nice coues buck 20 feet. well, maybe not quite that far because you have to calculate the continually slowing down of the object getting tossed by figuring in gravity, drag, etc. worry more about where you hit em, not what you hit em with. if you punch a .277 diameter hole in a coues deer's lungs, he dies. and fairly fast. doesn't matter if the bullet even expands. the more it expands, the more damage it does. but it still kills the deer. you can gutshoot a deer with a .270 and it will run off and probably get away. you can do the same thing with a .458. marksmanship, the ability to hit what you're shooting at in a good place is what puts stuff down. personally, i like to get close. track em down and jump shoot em. so i don't hafta worry about all them numbers. it's lotsa fun and i don't hafta remember as much. when i go huntin' i wanna hunt, not make a geometric calculation. that's too much like bein' back in school. Lark.

[Huntn coues]

WOW thats alot of info on this thread.

 

This sure has exercised my brain.

 

Thanks-

[firstcoueswas80]

"big wayvos " Hey Lark, if your gonna speak the language, know how to spell it! Huevos!! :D:D

 

 

on my 270wsm, i have a Zeiss 4.5-14x50 with target turrets. i have shot this gun at longer ranges. Doug and i went out shooting a few weeks ago and we both shot groups at 432 yards. his group hit the target, but mine was smaller. ( his was actually perfect, it was quite impressive) my group was about 10 inches low, and ( do to over guessing the wind) about 18 inches left. upon later inspection, i had set the turrets at 400 yards, instead of just shot at 450. the group was give or take 3.75"

 

 

this past saturday, i went out with a buddy with my 270wsm and my 22-250. ther was a melon sized rock at what we guessed was 550 yards. i put my 500 yard marker on my 22-250 just above it, hit the rock 3/3 times. i then dialed up my turrets to 550 and hit the rock 4/4 times dead center with my WSM. my buddy then hit the rock 3/3 times with the WSM.

 

my point is both turrets and Varmint/Boone and Crocket/ TDS style reticles can be very accurate. Jim Mullins, Christian, and myself had a client in December who had a finely tuned 300 wby with the TDS reticle on it. after we had killed, him and i fired a few rounds behind camp. we ranged a rock at i believe 422 yards. i asked him where to hold. i held dead on it ( this was a baseball-softball size rock) and on the first shot i blew it up.

 

I love and trust the turrets on my 270wsm. but i also love and trust the Varmint reticle scope i have on my 22-250. both can be used succesfully with practice and practice and practice.