fatfootdoc Report post Posted March 29, 2007 Did any of you NM hunters , especially in Grant CO. see the article about the grey wolf meetings in the paper? Ty Bays and his group are getting a meeting with the game and fish commission to discuss grey wolf management. The most striking thing to me about the whole article is what a moron our district commitee member, the venerable Dutch Salmon is. His final statement was I dont see why wolves and people cant get along?! What a friggin moron, he talks about wolf populations in MN and how they were fine up there, well they tag more deer in a hunting season up there than we actually have in the entire state of NM!!! What a butthead! He lives in NM now, when was the last time this joker actually went out in the field and went hunting? Our deer and elk herds in a lot of the units are not exactly thriving. He is totally unreachable as he does not respond to emails or phone calls, he is really a hemorrhoid essentially, you kind of forget its there until it hurts. Unfortunately he has the potential to really hurt us. If we cant get our commission to respond then where do we go from there? The grey wolf is a disaster to AZ and NM, they are not even purebred for crying out loud?!! If they were gila trout they just use piscicide on them and kill them off for not being a pure strain!! Of course then they would close all the streams in the area to let them recover, ah but I digress-- moral-- we have commission members who do not represent their constituents well and who are non responsive unless forced to be and it is handicapping us, I know there are much better candidates than him out there. AG Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Report post Posted March 29, 2007 AG, I've known Ty since childhood and wish him well. I hope he still has sense enough to approach this with some middleground in mind. I attended similar meetings put on by Joe Delk here in Las Cruces the last couple of weeks and the way I see it, these groups are as radical as the other side. I believe the only way the Commission is going to be swayed is with a logical and repectful approach, not with wild accusations and emotionally filled rhetoric. Maybe I'm wrong! I was unable to attend the Game Commission meeting here in town yesterday due to work obligations, but I will post what I can find out later. I do know that there was a heck of a crowd there based on what I've heard so far, so maybe the Commission will get the idea that not everyone is thrilled with the wolf program. I think sportsman should get more involved with the Game Commission either through the montly meetings or personal communitcations, but like you said most of them are not responsive to calls or letters. I suggest sending a letter certified mail; it tends to get their attention when there is a record of it. I would certainly urge you to attend the meeting Ty has planned and get as many sportsman there that you can. We as hunters tend to be a little layed back when it comes to getting involved with some of this stuff but if we don't become more involved, what gripe do we have? Kevin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattys281 Report post Posted March 29, 2007 The grey wolf is a disaster to AZ and NM, they are not even purebred for crying out loud?!! This past year was the first time I ventured into Az's White Mountains, but I made about 6 or 7 trips during the year. In all that time, I only encountered one pack of wolves & it consisted of 3 or 4 animals. I've heard lots of other people gripe about what the wolves are doing to the elk & deer populations in that area, but have yet to see anyone offer an independent research paper, from a university or other source, that cited wolves as being a major contributor to the deterioration of our game herds. Most of the text I've read points to drought, development, & other environmental issues. If you have something to support this point of view, please supply us with a link to it. I'm not trying to be combative, I'd just really like to know more about it. I personally enjoying running into predators out in the mountains and would like to see a balanced population. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin Report post Posted March 29, 2007 Matty, part of the problem is that even the NMDG&F elk biologist for the Gila doesn't have a good grip on the impact of the wolves. He does annual aerial surveys of calf:cow ratios in late September/early October. This past years data averaged about 42 calves per 100 cows at that time. By the time he does next years surveys last years calves are to similar in size to adults to distinguish them from the air so estimates of annual recruitment into the herd is not known. We only know that less than half of the cows in the Gila had calves 4 months after calving. Definately the drought, habitat quality and other predators have an inpact on these numbers. However, I wish USFWS were required to monitor the impact these wolves are having not only on big game, but other predators as well. It seems irresponsible to me not to. One of the most concerning things I've seen is in the Environmental Impact Statement for the wolf recovery. It states in its abstract, "For the Blue Range Wolf Recovery Area, the net long term effect on wild ungulates is projected to be between 1,200 and 1,900 fewer elk, and between 4,800 and 10,000 fewer deer, than would occur if there were no wolves." Personally, I don't think there are 10,000 deer in the recovery area (Apache Sitgreaves and Gila NF). One way or the other, there is no monitoring being conducted and I think it should be. If you sincerly want to know more about the program here are some links you can read: http://www.fws.gov/southwest/es/mexicanwolf/pdf/MW_EIS.pdf http://www.fws.gov/southwest/es/mexicanwolf/ http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/es/wolf_reintroduction.shtml http://www.wolfcrossing.org Kevin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattys281 Report post Posted March 29, 2007 Here's a list of responses they put out to common concerns voiced by the public. It's interesting that in on document they say the long term impact will be a reduction in the elk population by fewer than 2000 animals and a possible reduction of deer by up to 10,000 animals, yet at the time of this document (July, 06) they've documented only 101 elk kills & 5 deer kills from the wolves (comment #8). If that's all they've taken in 10 years, what the heck are they eating?! Now that I think about it, I never did see any stray kitties or dogs runnin around Alpine. http://www.azgfd.com/w_c/es/documents/MWCo...ns.20060719.pdf I hardly see how any one could find it acceptable to allow our deer herd, which only consists of 150k or so to begin with, to be reduced by 10,000 animals, particularly in one area. There wouldn't be any deer left in 27! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jamaro Report post Posted March 29, 2007 Okay.. My take on the entire thing is this... They are trying to reintroduce an animal into an environment that has changed... These animals went extinct in the wild for a reason.. Did humans play a role in this??? Yes a Major Role but when the habitat is suitable humans make a small dent in the population... Look at the coyote, those little suckers have been under amazing pressure in the last 50 years BUT they handle changing environments much better than wolves and guess what... We still have tons of coyotes... About Dutch... I read his statement in the Silver City Sun News and I was disappointed.. If he doesn't understand that the area has in roots in ranching then he is missing the boat. Jason Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JVS Report post Posted March 29, 2007 There is only one redeeming value in a pack of wolves or a big tom cat. They will kill other predators in their territory. This will reduce the overall amount of predators, but the quesiton is this...does the pack of wolves (or one large tom) have a greater impact on deer, elk, goats, etc, than the existing smaller and less dominant predators that are killed out? That's beside the point...here's the point. Wolves and lions suck. If we want to see deer and elk herd numbers up, go kill a few predators. I think we'd all be amazed at the amount of game that is taken by predators. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattys281 Report post Posted March 29, 2007 Do a little research on the Kaibab Plateau before you get set to run off all the predators. A few decades ago those deer were dying by the thousands because people had systematically eliminated all wolves, lions, & bears, leaving behind a population of prey with no predators to keep them in check. Obviously, fawn mortality rose to nearly 100%, thus causing a massive and quick population explosion that resulted in the over browsing & rampant disease. That lesson in predator extirpation is a model that's the backbone of some of the predator reintroduction programs you see. I'm not saying that's the case with the wolves. The numbers I've read so far seem to indicate that our state is being compromised to meet a federal agenda, but who can say for sure. A healthy predator population is absolutely vital to a healthy prey population, and I don't think for a minute that people are adept enough to step up & fill the role of lions & other large predators. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.270 Report post Posted March 29, 2007 the mexican wolf is extinct. it does not exist on this earth anymore. what has been "introduced" (not re-introduced) are wolf/dog crosses. they never had any pure bred wolves to start with and that's a fact. look how real live wild wolves took off in the yellowstone country. they're thick as fleas now because they were real wolves and didn't need some smelly hippy to teach em how to hunt. they have also decimated the other wildlife in yellowstone to the point that folks are getting worried. this entire mexican wolf deal is a buncha crap. Lark. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatfootdoc Report post Posted March 29, 2007 Mattys281 Nobody is advocating bounties on predators like what happened on the Kaibab. If you like to see predators in the wild that is fine, how about them eating your pets in front of you and you just sitting back and eating some popcorn and cussing because you cant touch them if they are eating your domestic pets. Think about that, and then if you have kids think about them sharing your popcorn with you while they watch a frigging hybrid "WOLF" eat your dog. The lion population is good enough to manage our deer herds without any help, I don't think we are going to be seeing a die off of deer akin to the kaibab disaster in the near future from overkilling predators. Lark, You are right on the money about those dogs with some wolf blood in them. They should publish DNA on them so we can see just how pure they really are!! Oh and Mr. Salmon is still a Moron and he missed the boat by so much that it was already back in harbor before he realized it had left. AG Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattys281 Report post Posted March 29, 2007 Sorry your kids had to see that. Personally, I would've set the popcorn down & tried throwing some rocks or something. In Az. the signs say that you are allowed to "harass" the animals in order to scare them away to protect you pets or property. If you really want to save the deer, elk, antelope, etc., forget the predators and start shooting developers and town planners. The best part of that hunt is that all you have to do to call them in is rattle some lose change in your pocket & they come-a-runnin. You'd probably get a few lawyers & politicians mixed in as well, but I don't think anyone would notice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.270 Report post Posted March 29, 2007 the goal of the wolfers ain't for the wolves to ever be self sufficient. or to even be somewhat prolific. the goal is to use the failure of the wolf program as a tool to pry everyone, other than huggers, off the land. hunters, loggers, ranchers, farmers, miners, etc. "well, sorry guys, but there just ain't enough game to feed the wolves and still allow hunting". "dang cowboys, we tried hard to teach the wolves to not eat cows, but they just won't learn". the real goal is get everyone off the land that uses it and the failure of the program is built in, to insure that. Lark. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KGAINES Report post Posted March 30, 2007 the goal of the wolfers ain't for the wolves to ever be self sufficient. or to even be somewhat prolific. the goal is to use the failure of the wolf program as a tool to pry everyone, other than huggers, off the land. hunters, loggers, ranchers, farmers, miners, etc. "well, sorry guys, but there just ain't enough game to feed the wolves and still allow hunting". "dang cowboys, we tried hard to teach the wolves to not eat cows, but they just won't learn". the real goal is get everyone off the land that uses it and the failure of the program is built in, to insure that. Lark. I agree with you on this one Lark. In the beginning the pro wolf people are going to say anything they can to get some hunters on their side, plus they already have the animal rights groups. They use charts and graphs to show how the wolves will not impact hunting or wildlife except in a good way. Now when the wolf goals are met and the numbers reach the levels they initially predicted, they want more, they say there are plenty of deer and elk for them to eat, the hunters don't need to hunt, but the wolves do to survive. Plus like you have said before, when they start acting like wolves and take easy prey like cattle, they get shot, if they show any signs of sickness they trap and kill them, then release more in the same area. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elmergoo Report post Posted March 30, 2007 Lark, you are on the money.Now what do we do? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatfootdoc Report post Posted March 30, 2007 mattys281, that was actually a hypothetical situation about how seeing predators in the wild is great until they eat your dog. And no you cant throw rocks or anything at the wolves as they devour FIDO because that is considered harassment! You are not allowed to harass mexican grey mutts unless they are attacking your livestock. So all you can do is sit and eat your orville redenbacher and watch your precious family mutt get his innards made into outards. Now in the real world, at least with my pets, there would be a dead grey mutt. ag Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
