North Kaibab deer

[KGAINES]

I wasnt trying to be a "college boy" or anything other than a guy who was passing on what info I have just seen. I am a member of ADA like some of the others on here because I feel that donating some time to a wildlife conservation group that stands up to AZGFD is important. Dogmann, I am unsure what I have done to you to deserve the public snub, maybe if you met me you would know that I am not an educated "non-hunter"..........we probably agree on most everything regarding the Kaibab. I have learned of the unit by hunting it the past 5 years with Duwane Adams. All of what I know about its history and current status is from him. The Kaibab can hold alot more deer than what it currently does, and alot of its holding capacity is dependant on its wintering ability. I am not a biologist, just my opinion............Allen........

 

Maybe I read it wrong, but I took it that he was referring to the azgfd with the college boy crack, and that the ADA can tell them all they want, but they aren't going to listen.

 

Hopefully the work the ADA and the azgfd are doing in the kaibab and other areas of the state will provide enough information and facts that decisions made that are detrimental to these groups efforts can't be made with no accountability.

[dogman68]

I wasnt trying to be a "college boy" or anything other than a guy who was passing on what info I have just seen. I am a member of ADA like some of the others on here because I feel that donating some time to a wildlife conservation group that stands up to AZGFD is important. Dogmann, I am unsure what I have done to you to deserve the public snub, maybe if you met me you would know that I am not an educated "non-hunter"..........we probably agree on most everything regarding the Kaibab. I have learned of the unit by hunting it the past 5 years with Duwane Adams. All of what I know about its history and current status is from him. The Kaibab can hold alot more deer than what it currently does, and alot of its holding capacity is dependant on its wintering ability. I am not a biologist, just my opinion............Allen........

Allen, my comment was not directed towards you in any way. It was directed towards game and fish, meaning that just because a college degree is a prerequisite for employment doesn't mean they know everything. So, this is a public apology to what you thought was a public snub-------which in no way was. I think it is very important to stand up to game and fish because it is beneficial to wildlife, hunters and also the department. In the past, G&F has claimed that what we were talking about is what they have always been doing and why is it necessary to even make sure they are doing what they claim. Anyway, my apology.

[shortpants]

Group hug!

[TAM]

Dogman, with regards to the "too many lions on the kaibab" theory... in your opinion are there significantly more lions there than anywhere else in Arizona, or is the theory just a convienent excuse?

[dogman68]

Dogman, with regards to the "too many lions on the kaibab" theory... in your opinion are there significantly more lions there than anywhere else in Arizona, or is the theory just a convienent excuse?

 

Tim,

I am not qualified to answer that, not being a biologist. I guess it depends on the definition of what is "too many". To some, 1 is too many. To some, 50 is too few. I just think that all wildlife has it's place in nature and this micromanagement that we do is unfair to ALL wildlife.

Every single study that has been done by the biology people concludes that lions do not have a negative impact on healthy game populations. Of course in the case of mule deer, most would recognize that deer populations are very low. So of course lions are going to have more of an impact on those populations--------just like 15 power bino's, guns that can shoot 800 yds. 4 buddies helping you glass for deer since you have a tag, etc etc.

I seldom hunt the Kaibab due to the tremendous snow hunting pressure it gets. My opinion would be that lions are there in viable numbers, in part, due to the close proximity to the park.

I remember back in the mid 80's they estimated there were 50 lions on the Kaibab. That was according to an article in the Arizona Republic. And back in the mid 80's you will recall, the deer herds were in a lot better shape than they are now, although some say they are gradually coming back. I doubt if there are any where near that number of lions on the Kaibab now, but again, I really wouldn't know and I don't think any one else does either.

Lion removal is very efficient in areas with snow cover as most lion hunting today is done with numerous vehicles combing the country, all connected by two way radio. Any lion that moves is more than likely a dead lion.

The studies I read pretty much say that the one deer a week thing is just heresay, more like 12-15 large mammals a year.

The ADA I believe has in the past hired a very good lion hunter to remove lions on the arizona strip. I recently read that the total removal has been a total of 23 over the last 5 years, which is probably consistent with lion densities in most places. Is that too many? Too few? I don't know. I know Allen is involved or in the know on deer stuff, it would be interesting to hear his take.?????

Again, my personal belief is that wildlife should be "managed" as a whole, not a fire brigade method that runs here and there trying to put out the flames brought on by political pressure.

Some of the big foundations appear to really hate lions and want them all killed To me, after 40 years of hunting

nearly full time, I have nothing but respect for them.

Also, in case there is misunderstanding on where I stand (not that it matters) I am totally pro Arizona Game and Fish but I also believe that "honesty is always the best policy".

What do you think? What is your opinion?

I think possibly part of the problem could be, most people in wild life management now weren't even alive when there were good numbers of deer, so who is to say what is healthy and what isn't. It's all a mystery to me. Personally, If I were a biologist, and I had not been able to "fix" something wrong in my cow herd in 30 years, I would try something different. JMO Hopefully the working together of the ADA et al and game and fish will produce some visible results.

I would say your highest lion populations are in areas where hunting is more challenging. That is, areas that receive little snow fall or are roadless. Most would agree that the Kaibab is a road hunter's dream come true. Sorry for this long oration.

[coueshunter]

Like everyone else, I have opinions on predator control, but being totally honest, I do not know to what extent "control" is needed for lions on the Kaibab. I know ADA has used a great guy, Jim Bedlion to hunt cats on the strip. I also know that in the 3-Bar study area, deer densities are substantially higher in the test area than right outside the fence and 3-bar has little to zero predators in the enclosure. Also, I think bobcats and coyotes do alot more damage to deer than many people may think. with all that being said, I am not sure how bad the predation is on the Kaibab by lions, but in coues country, lions really put the hurt on the deer. I think someone like wetmule (Kevin Harris) could really add some valuable insight into this discussion. Kevin has guided the strip/Kaibab areas for deer for many years, works with Jim B. on the predator control and would be one knowledgeable person on what is/has happened up on the kaibab......... I personally think lions are an important part of an overall eco-system but lets not mismanage like California has..............Allen........

[dogman68]

Like everyone else, I have opinions on predator control, but being totally honest, I do not know to what extent "control" is needed for lions on the Kaibab. I know ADA has used a great guy, Jim Bedlion to hunt cats on the strip. I also know that in the 3-Bar study area, deer densities are substantially higher in the test area than right outside the fence and 3-bar has little to zero predators in the enclosure. Also, I think bobcats and coyotes do alot more damage to deer than many people may think. with all that being said, I am not sure how bad the predation is on the Kaibab by lions, but in coues country, lions really put the hurt on the deer. I think someone like wetmule (Kevin Harris) could really add some valuable insight into this discussion. Kevin has guided the strip/Kaibab areas for deer for many years, works with Jim B. on the predator control and would be one knowledgeable person on what is/has happened up on the kaibab......... I personally think lions are an important part of an overall eco-system but lets not mismanage like California has..............Allen........

 

I think if there were 50 lions on the Kaibab, there wouldn't be any need to put out 1000 buck tags on the early hunt (2 years ago) or 2000 doe tags.

I agree, let's not do the California thing. "Can any good thing come out of California" ha ha

So I am wondering, by hiring a lion hunter to hunt lions on the strip, are the deer coming back in any noticeable numbers? It has never worked any where else but I am really curious how it is going up there.

[TAM]

OUCH!!! That one hurt Dogman! I didn't choose to be born in California, and at least I got out of there when I was only eight years old while there was still hope.

 

Your point about a cattle rancher finding a new career if he can't get it right after 30 years of trying pretty much sums it up. Isin't there a saying something like..... you can't change the results if you don't change the recipe.

 

I guess my opinion is that sometimes the simple way is the better way. All the biologists and science in the world doesn't mean a thing if we keep killing too many deer each year, especially the does. The scientific equation should be simple... kill fewer deer until the herds are able to rebound. I think managing the lions will be less effective at very best. I'm not a biologist either, but I'd guess that the ratio of lions per deer on the Kiabab is pretty similar to anywhere else in Arizona or perhaps even the west. I think the problem is that the G&F wants to over manage the deer by killing does and allow for a lot of hunter opportunity. Stop killing does and issue fewer permits and I'll bet money the deer come back. The lions are just an easy scapegoat.

[dogman68]

OUCH!!! That one hurt Dogman! I didn't choose to be born in California, and at least I got out of there when I was only eight years old while there was still hope.

 

Your point about a cattle rancher finding a new career if he can't get it right after 30 years of trying pretty much sums it up. Isin't there a saying something like..... you can't change the results if you don't change the recipe.

 

I guess my opinion is that sometimes the simple way is the better way. All the biologists and science in the world doesn't mean a thing if we keep killing too many deer each year, especially the does. The scientific equation should be simple... kill fewer deer until the herds are able to rebound. I think managing the lions will be less effective at very best. I'm not a biologist either, but I'd guess that the ratio of lions per deer on the Kiabab is pretty similar to anywhere else in Arizona or perhaps even the west. I think the problem is that the G&F wants to over manage the deer by killing does and allow for a lot of hunter opportunity. Stop killing does and issue fewer permits and I'll bet money the deer come back. The lions are just an easy scapegoat.

 

Well said my friend. There are many studies that are out on lion predation etc. They all basically say the same thing. When applied "locally" they are ineffective. It really makes little difference if you remove 4 lions a year from the Strip, Kaibab or anywhere else if you cannot prevent recruitment.

[111]

kill fewer deer until the herds are able to rebound. I think managing the lions will be less effective at very best. I'm not a biologist either, but I'd guess that the ratio of lions per deer on the Kiabab is pretty similar to anywhere else in Arizona or perhaps even the west. I think the problem is that the G&F wants to over manage the deer by killing does and allow for a lot of hunter opportunity. Stop killing does and issue fewer permits and I'll bet money the deer come back. The lions are just an easy scapegoat.

 

I also think the reason the deer are suffering is the high number of permits being issued, particulary doe permits. I think it's great for the youth hunters to get out and hunt, but I don't think it's more important than deer management. Every year I always check the regulations to see how many doe permits are being issued. Lately I've been satisfied that the doe permits are on a major decline.

[KGAINES]

kill fewer deer until the herds are able to rebound. I think managing the lions will be less effective at very best. I'm not a biologist either, but I'd guess that the ratio of lions per deer on the Kiabab is pretty similar to anywhere else in Arizona or perhaps even the west. I think the problem is that the G&F wants to over manage the deer by killing does and allow for a lot of hunter opportunity. Stop killing does and issue fewer permits and I'll bet money the deer come back. The lions are just an easy scapegoat.

 

I also think the reason the deer are suffering is the high number of permits being issued, particulary doe permits. I think it's great for the youth hunters to get out and hunt, but I don't think it's more important than deer management. Every year I always check the regulations to see how many doe permits are being issued. Lately I've been satisfied that the doe permits are on a major decline.

 

I was surprised last year when they listened to the ADA and the MDF on limiting doe permits, the commissioners told the azgfd to change them to buck permits and spread them to other youth hunts. I know the success ratio might go down for the kids, but the deer on the kaibab will benefit from this.

[Hunterdan]

AZGFD proposal for the Kaibab this year. 800 doe permits on the winter range in 12AW. Move early Buck Rifle hunt back to October and increase tags to 900 for increase "oppertunity" and lower hunt success. On 12AE the hunts will be moved earlier as well with 300 Tags. This is a increase of 550 tags for early Buck Hunts. Money! Money! Money! They make me sick!

[dogman68]

AZGFD proposal for the Kaibab this year. 800 doe permits on the winter range in 12AW. Move early Buck Rifle hunt back to October and increase tags to 900 for increase "oppertunity" and lower hunt success. On 12AE the hunts will be moved earlier as well with 300 Tags. This is a increase of 550 tags for early Buck Hunts. Money! Money! Money! They make me sick!

 

Well maybe that is good cause for another "study". We can study the "problem" for another 30 years until the deer are gone, then we can study why they are gone.

The 3-bar study (recent one) showed that the range can support 45-90 deer per square mile without any adverse impact on the food supply; instead of the 4-7 deer per square mile currently on the outside of the fence. Least that is what I am told by people who participated in the study.

We continue to wage Jiihad on mule deer.

[ronaldo]

Ive often thought "If the numbers are so low,Why dont they close the season for one year?" Same with Quail. Back off them for one year and see how many they rebound with. If the game and fish dept could afford not to issue deer tags for one year, they surely wouldnt do it because of the loss of $$ they would sustain. How bout it? How many would give up deer hunting for a year to see if they could bring back the deer numbers?

Also, Why kill the does on the kaibab? How bout move them to where we need more mule deer? It dont take a brainiac to figure that one out......

Ron

[GRONG]

heck I'd say no deer hunts for a few years if I was in control. But I don't have the degree so I'll just sit here and complain like the rest of us armchair warriors.