rossislider Report post Posted November 7, 2014 I did not feel in any way, "pounded" or "bludgeoned" by others posts. i posted my opinion, that i probably shouldn't have as it is in fact illegal to take any wildlife in the state of Arizona with an FMJ. We had no knowledge that this law applies to fur-bearers as well. My father just took what i told him and turned it into something totally different. I only brought it up with him to ask if it was indeed illegal to take wildlife with FMJs. I mentioned how others had stated facts about how it was illegal and because it wasn't we thought, my father took it as an attack. He was just doing what every parent would do if their kid was being attacked, it just was a misunderstanding between he and i. My father is a very heated and passionate person as some may now know....my dad started this without me knowing. and if anyone ever has any problems with me, pm me, because i am a big boy and can stand up for myself... Sorry for the inconvenience, good luck on your hunts everyone and stay safe! Very mature response. Thanks! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lancetkenyon Report post Posted November 8, 2014 lancetkenyon: I never saw the post, but my impression is that may be the one? I would be very careful with your term "loophole" as I sought out the actual AZ G&F employee who wrote the regulation. That by far, is more than satisfactory for me! Please understand that coyotes and foxes are not considered "big game" animals in the state of Arizona. BTW, EVERY coyote and fox that I have shot or seen shot with a FMJ bullet provided a lethal hit and rapid demise. My son was not "inaccurate" in his post and I really care not for the tone of your response. I guess if that is the closest my son will get to your apology, we will have to settle for that. As always, you are entitled to your opinion even if the facts may not support it. My son never asked for special treatment due to his age. I just ask that you afford other posters on this site some minimal level of respect. What we DO NOT need on this site is "self-proclaimed" experts. I may not totally agree with you, but thanks for your response. Oh, BTW, the VERY FAMOUS bullet designed by Jack Carter, the Trophy Boned Bear Claw is "weight forward" and one of the best big game bullets ever! Far superior to the ever-popular, Nosler Partition. Now even you learned something today! Later, 280REM 280Rem, I really think you should go to the thread and read it in it's entirety. First of all, I never saw your son's first post, as he had already deleted it by the time I chimed in with my opinion, look at the time stamps on the posts for reference. I have never proclaimed myself to be an expert. Just give my opinion on a lot of matters with the experience I have gained through mostly trial and error. I also have my own set of ethics and how I interpret the law of use of FMJs for hunting, not for just big game. Yours may vary. As for the tone of my response, there was no tone. Just asked for some clarification to a vague finger-pointing post. And I still stand by my statements about the political correctness is making things worse in a lot of cases. Back in our day (I am sure yours as well as mine), not everyone made the team, and sometimes feelings got hurt. It made us stronger men because of it. I applaud your defense of your son. I really do. And your son seems mature beyond his years, and more that able to stand his ground. Now that I know what thread you are referring to, I can say that my post was not an attack, or "pounding" or "Bludgeoning" in any way. To PatrickJr.: Keep up the hunting and learning. Do not take anyone's word for more than what they are, mostly opinions. Research what others tell you and YOU be the judge of what you feel is ethical and legal. As for the "experts" on here, many of the members ARE experts, and have years of knowledge on various subjects, just like your father. If my post was one of the ones that upset you, I sincerely apologize. But know this, I never saw your original post. So my comments were not directed at any one member. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lancetkenyon Report post Posted November 8, 2014 Please understand I do not want to argue the subject but since you asked I will try to help see it from a different angle. I am also not advocating breaking the law but believe game managers are able to make rational decisions in the field. True most bullets start their journey with the bulk of the weight to the rear along their longitudinal centerline. There are exceptions like the ones you mentioned and more, but the difference is what happens after impact. Hardcast lead being a different subject all together. 1. The one thing for certain when talking about bullet performance is that nothing is certain. 2. Bullets designed to expand and deliver/impart their energy into the target do so at such a rapid rate that the nose (meplat) begins to deform (mushroom) and the shape that induces the yaw is gone before it happens. 3. The fmj shape doesn't so easily deform and thus the heavier rear will normally attempt to overtake the lighter front end. This yaw or tumble creates a notable cavitation. Add in a bone or two and many times the force is great enough to tear the bullet apart. 4. Rifling spins a bullet to stabilize it. When that bullets enters tissue that spin is not sufficient to continue the stabilization and the bullet will begin to yaw. The depth in the tissue that yaw begins is a huge variable dependant on unlimited different variables; thickness of mass traveling through, bone impacts, tissue density, see #1 5. In some cases (usually short range) the bullet attempts to yaw and is stressed enough to seperate the jacket from the core and fragment. It is my belief that what is the right tool for the masses is not always right for everyone. We can argue about high velocity FMJ rifle bullets for fox and coyote being ethical yet there are people shooting elk in the hind quarters with archery equipment? Bottomline... Know the capabilties of you and your equipment and operate inside those limits. 1. Amen to that! 2. Understood. 3. Got it. Ugly would channel. 4. Understood. 5. Working similarly to a frangible bullet. Got it. We won't go into misplaced shots. That is a whole different subject, and one I totally agree with you on. And, unfortunately, it is not just with archery equipment. I agree 100% with your final statement as well. Thank you for the clarification. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WampusCat Report post Posted November 8, 2014 No problem. I'm no expert but I have seen a lot of fmj's hit stuff and do crazy things. Glad this post sorted itself out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bowfishAZ Report post Posted November 8, 2014 I realize now why they give a last place ribbon... 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twowindy Report post Posted November 9, 2014 I am the one who refered to the rule on the use of FMJ bullits .If I offended anyone by doing this I am sorry.It wasn't my Intent.I was just informing members about the law. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lancetkenyon Report post Posted November 11, 2014 Not going to get back into the FMJ legality here in AZ, or ethics debate, but I am man enough to admit when I am wrong on a bullet manufacturer making a FMJ and calling it out for hunting purposes, albeit only for small game/varmints, not big game. Here is a Sierra "GAMEKING" in .243" 90grain FMJBT https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/1535/243-dia-6mm--90-gr-FMJBT And a .224" "Gameking" FMJBT for varmint/small game hunting. https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/1355/224-dia-55-gr-FMJBT .308 110 grian FMJ RN "Pro-hunter" https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/2105/308-dia-110-gr-FMJ .308 150 grain "Gameking" FMJBT https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/2115/308-dia-150-gr-FMJBT 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MRL1984 Report post Posted November 11, 2014 Why is this in Rifle coues deer hunting? I will keep my not nice opinions to myself. Patrickjr way to write a post like a grown man in this thread. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigorange Report post Posted November 12, 2014 Well said. We could all learn a lot from PatrickJr. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ready2hunt Report post Posted November 12, 2014 Vote Patrickjr for president! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yotebuster Report post Posted November 12, 2014 Back before ballistic tips and even rapidly expanding HP ammo was available we used FMJ exclusively for coyotes in ND to save furs. Never saw one object to it. Our ND coyotes are dang near the size of a coues deer. There are so many better options out there now I would recommend using them, a high expansion bullet leaves one hole, an FMJ 2. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThomC Report post Posted November 12, 2014 Wow after all that I hope that people still know that you can be cited for exactly what the regs say. No FMJ. The comment, ( like a military) is a descriptive term and not all inclusive. Many rules are open to interpretation. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is a duck. What would a reasonable person say " it is a duck". IMHOP of course. In fact all posts are opinions although some are not humble. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Havasuhunter Report post Posted November 12, 2014 I have no personal experience but a couple MT guys I know from the oilfield swear they prefer FMJ bullets in a 220 swift or 22-250 for their coyote hunting when saving the pelt is the goal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnnie blaze Report post Posted November 12, 2014 Oh mylanta Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trphyhntr Report post Posted November 13, 2014 lol hard if youre not using incendiary rounds for varmints Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
