Full Metal Jacket?

[280REM]

Hi All:

 

 

Yes it is also a title of a movie. I however now feel compelled to respond to a recent topic. There was a thread up in regard to the use of a FMJ bullet for hunting varmints.

 

A contributor tried to help another in regard to this topic and was pretty much "pounded" by a number of you. He was verbally "bludgeoned" to such an extent that he removed the thread in embarrassment.

 

When I heard of this I contacted a personal friend that had retired from AZ G&F after 35 years of service and actually WROTE the applicable regulation. I therefore consider him an "authority" on this issue. He shared the following:

 

The spirit of the reg is to protect typically, big game from the use of a "non-expanding" bullet, in a primarily for military use cartridge. He would NEVER issue a citation for the use of FMJ projectiles on small game and fur-bearers in the State of Arizona.

 

Further, the contributor related a story in which he and a hunter partner called in a brace of Grey Foxes this past spring. He killed the first with a shotgun and his buddy killed the second with a Mossberg MVP chambered in .223 Remington. The second fox was indeed killed with a 55 grain FMJ bullet.

 

 

Here is the rub:

 

1. The contributor that was just tying to help is not even 16 years old. All he wants to do on this site is learn from you and share information with others.

 

2. Yes, he is a "hunting fool" and just loves to be outdoors. BTW, he will be out this weekend for the third such weekend just trying to help other hunter friends successfully fill their tags.

 

3. The .223 Remington cartridge with the 55 grain FMJ bullet that killed the second Grey Fox was hand-crafted in MY GARAGE on a Dillon 550. The regulation therefore DOES NOT apply as the round and many others like it were NEVER intended for MILITARY USE!

 

4. In many cases the regulations must be interpreted with a "modicum" of common sense. For some of you recently, it has become painfully clear that this is NOT the case.

 

5. I know all of this as the 15 1/2 year old kid, that you pounded with your responses, is my son and only child.

 

So before you SLAM others on this site that may have views or a different interpretation of the regulations than yours consider this post.

 

 

In closing, I do strongly feel that a small number of you owe my son an apology.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

280REM

DAD

[bigorange]

Nice post of the facts and great explanation. I didn't even see the other thread until after your son had removed his original post, but definitely didn't like the way it went down.

[WampusCat]

I never saw the other post mentioned but I can imagine the "expert opinions" that chimed in. I am sorry your son experienced that from this site but this is just another part of the real world and I am sure he hasnt had his last taste of knuckleheads. Hope its a learning point for him and he doesnt get down about it.

 

Most of these "experts" would be surprised to know what actually happens when a military style full metal jacket with its center of gravity well toward it's rear travels through a "mass".

[lancetkenyon]

Care to elaborate the thread title and the name of the original poster?

 

My statements in the ".223 for Fox" thread are, in my opinion, accurate and tactful. In no way do I want to discourage young hunters from learning ethics and proper etiquette, but sometimes life is hard, and lessons learned through trial by fire are sometimes the best lessons learned. I know every time I got my butt handed to me (both verbally or physically), I sure learned the lesson after the first time.

 

If it was NOT this thread, I would like to see what it is you are talking about. I still believe that the use of FMJ bullets for hunting is not only illegal in AZ, but unethical as well. Even if you find a loophole by loading your own FMJ bullets and it was never "intended for military use", I do not think it is in the spirit of the law, or fair to the game animal for anything other than maybe rabbits or squirrels. We, as hunters, should ALWAYS strive for the quickest kill as possible. FMJs do not do this 95% of the time with anything other than a head shot. Even then, not always the quickest.

 

I fully understand wanting to protect your child, as I have two myself. But the politically correctness these days drives me crazy. If you allow your child to be a member on here, and he posts inaccurate things, or posts that others take offense to, he should be prepared to suffer the wrath of the other members opinions as well. There is nothing visible on his posts that indicate he is a minor. If he wants to be treated like an equal, he needs to be prepared for all aspects of that.

 

I hope he has not been turned off to hunting because of this. The future generation of hunters is getting thinner and thinner.

[lancetkenyon]

Quick question on a FMJ having most of the weight towards the rear of the projectile. Isn't that the case with 99% of bullets having the center of balance towards the rear? Probably even more so with hunting designed bullets? Maybe just a flat nosed wad cutter style lead bullet, or the Cutting Edge Brass bullet would be the only two I can think of that would not be significantly rear of center balanced.

 

Just a question, as I am no physics or engineering major.

[280REM]

lancetkenyon:

 

 

I never saw the post, but my impression is that may be the one? I would be very careful with your term "loophole" as I sought out the actual AZ G&F employee who wrote the regulation. That by far, is more than satisfactory for me!

 

 

Please understand that coyotes and foxes are not considered "big game" animals in the state of Arizona. BTW, EVERY coyote and fox that I have shot or seen shot with a FMJ bullet provided a lethal hit and rapid demise.

 

My son was not "inaccurate" in his post and I really care not for the tone of your response.

 

 

I guess if that is the closest my son will get to your apology, we will have to settle for that.

 

As always, you are entitled to your opinion even if the facts may not support it.

 

 

My son never asked for special treatment due to his age. I just ask that you afford other posters on this site some minimal level of respect.

 

What we DO NOT need on this site is "self-proclaimed" experts.

 

I may not totally agree with you, but thanks for your response.

 

Oh, BTW, the VERY FAMOUS bullet designed by Jack Carter, the Trophy Boned Bear Claw is "weight forward" and one of the best big game bullets ever! Far superior to the ever-popular, Nosler Partition.

 

Now even you learned something today!

 

Later,

 

 

280REM

[MULEPACKHUNTER]

That says it all right there, you didnt even see the post????? I read the post and I dont see any attack whatsoever just opinions and very mild mannered opinions.

[WampusCat]

Please understand I do not want to argue the subject but since you asked I will try to help see it from a different angle. I am also not advocating breaking the law but believe game managers are able to make rational decisions in the field.

 

True most bullets start their journey with the bulk of the weight to the rear along their longitudinal centerline. There are exceptions like the ones you mentioned and more, but the difference is what happens after impact. Hardcast lead being a different subject all together.

 

1. The one thing for certain when talking about bullet performance is that nothing is certain.

 

2. Bullets designed to expand and deliver/impart their energy into the target do so at such a rapid rate that the nose (meplat) begins to deform (mushroom) and the shape that induces the yaw is gone before it happens.

 

3. The fmj shape doesn't so easily deform and thus the heavier rear will normally attempt to overtake the lighter front end. This yaw or tumble creates a notable cavitation. Add in a bone or two and many times the force is great enough to tear the bullet apart.

 

4. Rifling spins a bullet to stabilize it. When that bullets enters tissue that spin is not sufficient to continue the stabilization and the bullet will begin to yaw. The depth in the tissue that yaw begins is a huge variable dependant on unlimited different variables; thickness of mass traveling through, bone impacts, tissue density, see #1

 

5. In some cases (usually short range) the bullet attempts to yaw and is stressed enough to seperate the jacket from the core and fragment.

 

It is my belief that what is the right tool for the masses is not always right for everyone. We can argue about high velocity FMJ rifle bullets for fox and coyote being ethical yet there are people shooting elk in the hind quarters with archery equipment?

 

Bottomline... Know the capabilties of you and your equipment and operate inside those limits.

[jim]

Here is the rule as it reads in the regs. The rule says any wildlife does not specify big or small game.

 

A. In addition to the prohibitions prescribed under A.R.S. §§
17-301 and 17-309, the following devices, methods, and
ammunition are unlawful for taking any wildlife in this
state:
1. An individual shall not use any of the following to
take wildlife:
a. Fully automatic firearms, including firearms
capable of selective automatic fire; or
b. Tracer, armor-piercing, or full-jacketed ammunition
designed for military use.

[trphyhntr]

OP, stfu.

[280REM]

mulepackhunter:

 

 

I did not need to see the exact post as my son related to me what transpired. Nothing "says it all"! My son and I will continue to believe and carry on as we see fit. FMJ or not.

 

I will not respond further, as to risk intervention on the part of Ms. Amanda.

 

Signing off. Cheers,

 

280REM

[rossislider]

I have to admit, I am a bit perplexed by this as well. While I did not comment on the post, I did read it and don't recall any attacks or any comments that I would consider to be overly negative or attacking??? I'll go back and look, maybe I missed something?

[rossislider]

Just went back an read all the posts. As far as I can tell, only the following post referenced patrickjr and I don't see how it was negative or derogatory in any way?

 

"FMJ bullits are not legal to take wildlife in this state.Read the game and fish regs R12-4-303.I would agree with patrickjr .The 17hmr is a good choice if your saving the fur.I use a shotgun for taking 90% of the fur bearers I take.:

 

Patrickjr removed his post right after the one above was written.

 

Here is a link to the thread.

 

http://www.coueswhitetail.com/forums/topic/53458-will-556-damage-fox/

 

I have nothing but respect for a father looking out for his son, I would do the same for my own. I also think patrickjr comes across as a great kid. I've ready many of his posts and have had a couple of online dialogues with him. He seems very mature and knowledgeable on the topic of hunting for someone so young. But I also remember being that age, and have many years of experience working with young men through the Boy Scouts. I know that young men can be a little over sensitive to someone correcting them or telling them they are not 100% correct. It can be a big shot to the pride of someone that age. Perhaps this is the case and dad didn't quite get the whole story, or read a little to much into what his patrickjr told him?

[ready2hunt]

Here is the rub:

 

1. The contributor that was just tying to help is not even 16 years old. All he wants to do on this site is learn from you and share information with others.

 

2. Yes, he is a "hunting fool" and just loves to be outdoors. BTW, he will be out this weekend for the third such weekend just trying to help other hunter friends successfully fill their tags.

 

3. The .223 Remington cartridge with the 55 grain FMJ bullet that killed the second Grey Fox was hand-crafted in MY GARAGE on a Dillon 550. The regulation therefore DOES NOT apply as the round and many others like it were NEVER intended for MILITARY USE!

 

4. In many cases the regulations must be interpreted with a "modicum" of common sense. For some of you recently, it has become painfully clear that this is NOT the case.

 

5. I know all of this as the 15 1/2 year old kid, that you pounded with your responses, is my son and only child.

 

So before you SLAM others on this site that may have views or a different interpretation of the regulations than yours consider this post.

 

 

In closing, I do strongly feel that a small number of you owe my son an apology.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

280REM

DAD

 

 

 

 

What posts are you referring to? That was a pretty civil thread.

[PatrickJr]

I did not feel in any way, "pounded" or "bludgeoned" by others posts. i posted my opinion, that i probably shouldn't have as it is in fact illegal to take any wildlife in the state of Arizona with an FMJ. We had no knowledge that this law applies to fur-bearers as well. My father just took what i told him and turned it into something totally different. I only brought it up with him to ask if it was indeed illegal to take wildlife with FMJs. I mentioned how others had stated facts about how it was illegal and because it wasn't we thought, my father took it as an attack.

 

He was just doing what every parent would do if their kid was being attacked, it just was a misunderstanding between he and i. My father is a very heated and passionate person as some may now know....my dad started this without me knowing. and if anyone ever has any problems with me, pm me, because i am a big boy and can stand up for myself...

 

Sorry for the inconvenience, good luck on your hunts everyone and stay safe!