Only remedy is an elected commisioner

[hawkeye]

There is a big difference in non-hunters and anti-hunters. Don't confuse the isue. Just because someone doesn't hunt doesn't mean that they are against hunting. And as for being careful of what I wish for. I wish for an input as to what happens to our hunting opportunities and game mangement in Arizona. If you think the money grubbing commisioners have your needs in mind and the needs of the wildlife, just look at their past records. You are right I have no idea of what will happen if we were to vote for a commisioner from each county, But I DO KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING WITHOUT ANY INPUT. If you think you will be hunting 15 to 20 years down the road, in Arizona, then you haven't been following what has happened in the last 15 years. There is no oversight to the Game and Fish Dept. Yes I know that they are supposed to answer to the legislators and Governor, but have you ever been involved with bureaucratic government. I have, and let me tell you what happens. What ever is recomended by the commisioner is word of law. And as long as they are pulling in the millions and millions of dollars, every legislator is trying to figure a way to get there hands on it, not on how it is being collected. If every county had a commisioner, hunters overwhelmingly out number the anti-hunters in most of the counties. Who cares if Maricopa is full of tree huggers. They would only have one commisioner.

I know this would never happen but I am sure it would work better than what is happening now. But if everybody likes what is happening now with the Dept. and loves the idea of money over game management, lets just let our apointed death squad, deliver its death blow to our hunting heritage

[Rembrant]

Thanks Bill,

Mike

[couestaxi]

I applaude your effots to see a change. I know everyone is frustrated with the department. Less than 1% of our hunters do anything to actually work with the department or for wildlife in Arizona. Most are consumptive users of the system. They just sit back and complain about not being drawn. Well, their voices have been heard and acted on. If you would really like to help and see how things work join the Wildlife Conservation Council and attend a few meetings. People have no idea what a political mess we really have here. Their web site is below:

 

http://www.arizonawildlifecouncil.org/

 

One member from each sportsing group attends to discuss current issues and solutions. Quite often Duane Shroufe and other top dogs are there. The Commission meetings are not the best place to get things done. Most issues are decided well before those occur. Keep fighting for change or it won't occur. Be carefull with the elected commissioner though the Humane Society will want to be your best friend!

[AZcoues_addict]

I think its a bad idea to have an elected commissioner, it would have to be voted on by ONLY hunters and outdoorsmen, and then its still a debate if all of those who call themselves by this name really are or not!

 

Hawkeye, how many BPs do you have for antelope? You got me thinking, I should have 10 for Elk, maybe we can work something out? Anyone else interested?

[Diamondbackaz]

There are a lot of hunters out there that have hunting licenses but don't have votor registration cards!!!! It's amazing how many people don't vote....

[billrquimby]

" I DO KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING WITHOUT ANY INPUT. If you think you will be hunting 15 to 20 years down the road, in Arizona, then you haven't been following what has happened in the last 15 years. "

 

 

I have been closely following what has been happening to hunting and fishing in Arizona and across the United States for more than half a century and the present commission is not to blame for deer hunters losing nearly 70,000 tags over the past 37 years. As for what I'll be doing 15 to 20 years down the road, I'm 70 now and a have some health problems. I'll be happy if I'm still above room temperature.

 

You are correct that non-hunters outnumber hunters and anti-hunters, but you are naive if you think hunters would win a popular vote, even in Arizona's rural counties, when PETA, HSUS and other anti-hunting groups move into Arizona and dump millions of dollars into professional advertising and PR campaigns. Like it or not, we hunters are outnumbered and inadequately financed, and our numbers shrink each year.

 

Bill Quimby

[RHINO]

Why do you think our numbers are declining? Maybe it is because our wildlife management is horrible, and the quality of our hunting keeps going down.

 

I love to hunt just as much as any of you, but if I was in a position to relocate I would. I am sick of waiting a decade or more for a decent tag. I have been applying for 17 years, and in that time I have had 0 antelope tags, 2 bull tags, and 6 deer tags. The only decent tag I could count on was my december 24a tag, but now they have taken that away too. I was able to get that tag every 3 or 4 years, and it was usually a great hunt. This last year I had the november hunt. I have never glassed so hard and seen so few deer but so many people. The idea of more tags in place of quality hunting or the wildlife itself is not a good one. Everyone is so afraid of change, even when they don't like the current situation that they are in.

[Rembrant]

RHINO,

Think about what you just wrote, paraphrased: "I can't get a tag." " I don't like the idea of more tags."

That's the dilema, buddy; there are too many people in this state that want to go hunting. Also, "No wonder our numbers are declining."

Our numbers are not declining - that's why we can't get a tag.

For some reason, hunters have a hard time identifying what the problem is. The problem is us, too many of US. The resource is limited, and the people are not. THAT is the problem.

Put on your thinking cap and try to figure a solution. What? You don't have one yet? Either do I!

But I know that our favorite past time of slamming the Game Dept. will only devide and conquer us in the long run.

Moving to Montana is not a bad idea...

Mike

[hawkeye]

RHINO,

Think about what you just wrote, paraphrased: "I can't get a tag." " I don't like the idea of more tags."

That's the dilema, buddy; there are too many people in this state that want to go hunting. Also, "No wonder our numbers are declining."

Our numbers are not declining - that's why we can't get a tag.

For some reason, hunters have a hard time identifying what the problem is. The problem is us, too many of US. The resource is limited, and the people are not. THAT is the problem.

Put on your thinking cap and try to figure a solution. What? You don't have one yet? Either do I!

But I know that our favorite past time of slamming the Game Dept. will only devide and conquer us in the long run.

Moving to Montana is not a bad idea...

Mike

Well from what I am reading is that, you think that the Game and Fish are doing a good job of reprsenting the needs of the wildlife and the wants of the hunting public. Tell me why you don't think a preference point system would work. Also tell me why the GFD ignored the ADA petition and worded a bogus hunting inquiry with a pre determined outcome. Also tell me why we pay some of the highest prices in the country for resident hunting and fishing, with no representation. Don't tell me to go to the meetings. I have. When a topic gets heated they refuse any direct coment and end the meeting. The GFD has been doing a terific job in creating a windfall for some future politician to raid, and recently they have figured out that we can't do a thing about it, and slap us in the face with these bogus questionairs. They think we are stupid, no, they know we are. Sorry I got on this soap box, but after ignoring the ADA questionair and creating that bogus bunch of crap they did, it showed just how arrogant they are.

[TLH]

Apathy is the downfall of hunters--yes, we can make a difference with numbers, yes we have the numbers, no, the numbers will not respond when the time is here. The trapping law was put in place by a barrage of anti-killing commercials that were all over the TV--it wasn't through facts and we as hunters screwed ourselves because we were sitting on our arses waiting for some of our other fellow hunters to keep our trapping in place. We did not respond because most of us do not trap so, if it doesn't affect us then why should i care--that was the first step of the anti's and they won--why, because we have a bunch of apathetic lazy people in the sport we love who wants other people to take care of their hunting future.

 

The only thing that Hawkeye said that really shows he has no understanding of government is when he said we elected the dumbest SOB into office--really? And i bet Hawkeye thinks the Pres actually runs this country too?? Now that we have a new batch of dems in the Senate we can look forward to more anti hunting and anti-gun laws to be passed. Bush might not be the brightest bulb in the pack but he is what he is--and, i think i can go on record and say that when the war all went down we were all for going over there and going to war.

 

The three new people that are up for vote in the commission will all be good. I don't like politicians so make sure you look at all three and make up your mind who those politicians are--these people all have their own agenda and they scare me.

 

Supply and demand is just what the price hike is all about--that is the way of business and they could care less how much you do or don't like it. The game and fish are doing a decent job and if any of you have any ideas how to make it better (real ideas) they would be happy to hear them. Just make sure you have some facts to base your theories on because without facts you will be looked at like your pulling things out of your hat and they wont even think about what you have to say.

 

We all need to be concerned about the future of hunting but i don't see it getting any worst or any better in the next 15 years--of course that is my opinion.

[hawkeye]

Apathy is the downfall of hunters--yes, we can make a difference with numbers, yes we have the numbers, no, the numbers will not respond when the time is here. The trapping law was put in place by a barrage of anti-killing commercials that were all over the TV--it wasn't through facts and we as hunters screwed ourselves because we were sitting on our arses waiting for some of our other fellow hunters to keep our trapping in place. We did not respond because most of us do not trap so, if it doesn't affect us then why should i care--that was the first step of the anti's and they won--why, because we have a bunch of apathetic lazy people in the sport we love who wants other people to take care of their hunting future.

 

The only thing that Hawkeye said that really shows he has no understanding of government is when he said we elected the dumbest SOB into office--really? And i bet Hawkeye thinks the Pres actually runs this country too?? Now that we have a new batch of dems in the Senate we can look forward to more anti hunting and anti-gun laws to be passed. Bush might not be the brightest bulb in the pack but he is what he is--and, i think i can go on record and say that when the war all went down we were all for going over there and going to war.

 

The three new people that are up for vote in the commission will all be good. I don't like politicians so make sure you look at all three and make up your mind who those politicians are--these people all have their own agenda and they scare me.

 

Supply and demand is just what the price hike is all about--that is the way of business and they could care less how much you do or don't like it. The game and fish are doing a decent job and if any of you have any ideas how to make it better (real ideas) they would be happy to hear them. Just make sure you have some facts to base your theories on because without facts you will be looked at like your pulling things out of your hat and they wont even think about what you have to say.

 

We all need to be concerned about the future of hunting but i don't see it getting any worst or any better in the next 15 years--of course that is my opinion.

How about the fact that they totaly ignored the Arizona Deer Hunter survey. Is that fact enough. How about the preference point system. It has been working well in Colorado for years. And as for not knowing about how government works. Well ok you said to look over the three cadidates for the commision. What the heck does that matter. The Gov. appoints them. That is what I am saying. You have absolutely no say in the matter. Have you been to one of the GFD meetings? I have. If you don't agree with them then sit down and shut up. In Pine top when the matter of changing the deer hunting structure came up, there were a very large number of people there to voice their opinion. That was a joke. When the people running the meeting didn't like the way the meeting was going the discussion was shut down. What a waist of time. And if you don't see it getting any worse in the next 15 years, where the heck have you been in the last 15 years. I was born here over 50 years ago, and have been hunting for 43 of them. I agree with you, I had no problem with the GFD up until the last 10 years, and tried to help when I had time. I have watched the commision ignor problems and even creat problems in the last several yrears. I have watched as the GFD became nothing more than a money machine. A few years ago I had a conversation with a new game officer who told me as a matter of fact that the commisioners ignor the biologists' and her advice, and did what ever they wanted. I doubt now she would admit the conversation. Things are changing. Instead of the GFD being a friend of the sportsman they are becoming arrogant manipulating polititions. And as for G.W. not being smart, seeing is beliving.

[Rembrant]

Yeah I think they do an excellent job. They walk a tight rope and jugle bottles to satify people that can never be content.

I don't like all the hunts. Too many hunts, all stratified and stacked up all over the place. Never used to be like this. But there never were so many people wanting to hunt. I recently spoke to a guy that got ticked off in the early 70's when the dept. made people select a certain unit instead of having the whole state to hunt in. He got so mad, he quit hunting. I think all of todays dicontented people should do the same thing - quit, or move - then maybe I can get another elk tag.

I think the Dept is running a business and they will always make unpopular business decisions. I think they should have seriously considered the ADA survey. I also think this was a Dept. mistake by not doing so. BUT - in a business environment, you have a few thousand signatures presented to you with some opinions, when the general public that you serve amounts to 500,000 strong.

The general hunting public dwarfs the signed survey. The Dept has got to do what they think is right for everybody. And, we should be thankful that they don't act on all the fringe groups that toss demands at them also.

Wasn't one of the main issues in the ADA survey, that we didn't want the Dept messing with the late whitetail tags and offering more early tags in an effort to allow more people to hunt? And at the same time, we are all disapointed that we can't get drawn?

WHAT IS THE ANSWER HERE??!!

I just now stated that I think there are too many hunts and in the same paragraph I invite people to quit hunting so I can get an elk tag. WHAT IS THE ANSWER HERE?

The Dept does a wonderful juggling act in an impossible situation. And guess what? It will only get worse because people will keep moving here and having babies - and wanting to hunt.

I applaud Mr. Gaines, TLH, and Mr. Quimbly with their calm, rational, common sense replies in these strings. There are a lot of cool educated people that write into this forum, who know the score. I would suggest that the complainers spend a little less time pounding their computers and a little more time fact finding.

AGAIN, The problem is having a limited resource being pressured by too many people. If your rants, complaints and suggested solutions don't in some way chip away to find solutions to this most basic problem, then you are only blowing smoke.

Mike

[hawkeye]

Yeah I think they do an excellent job. They walk a tight rope and jugle bottles to satify people that can never be content.

I don't like all the hunts. Too many hunts, all stratified and stacked up all over the place. Never used to be like this. But there never were so many people wanting to hunt. I recently spoke to a guy that got ticked off in the early 70's when the dept. made people select a certain unit instead of having the whole state to hunt in. He got so mad, he quit hunting. I think all of todays dicontented people should do the same thing - quit, or move - then maybe I can get another elk tag.

I think the Dept is running a business and they will always make unpopular business decisions. I think they should have seriously considered the ADA survey. I also think this was a Dept. mistake by not doing so. BUT - in a business environment, you have a few thousand signatures presented to you with some opinions, when the general public that you serve amounts to 500,000 strong.

The general hunting public dwarfs the signed survey. The Dept has got to do what they think is right for everybody. And, we should be thankful that they don't act on all the fringe groups that toss demands at them also.

Wasn't one of the main issues in the ADA survey, that we didn't want the Dept messing with the late whitetail tags and offering more early tags in an effort to allow more people to hunt? And at the same time, we are all disapointed that we can't get drawn?

WHAT IS THE ANSWER HERE??!!

I just now stated that I think there are too many hunts and in the same paragraph I invite people to quit hunting so I can get an elk tag. WHAT IS THE ANSWER HERE?

The Dept does a wonderful juggling act in an impossible situation. And guess what? It will only get worse because people will keep moving here and having babies - and wanting to hunt.

I applaud Mr. Gaines, TLH, and Mr. Quimbly with their calm, rational, common sense replies in these strings. There are a lot of cool educated people that write into this forum, who know the score. I would suggest that the complainers spend a little less time pounding their computers and a little more time fact finding.

AGAIN, The problem is having a limited resource being pressured by too many people. If your rants, complaints and suggested solutions don't in some way chip away to find solutions to this most basic problem, then you are only blowing smoke.

Mike

You said it in a nut shell. They are running it like a business. It is a government service. It is supposed to meet the needs of the wildlife and people of Arizona. That is why I have a problem with the unfair distrubution of tags. If it were a business then I shouldn't have any say in how it works. But the big difference is that you and I pay the price of "running it like a business" They are not suppose to profit off of the taxpayers. This whole thing started with the way the GFD pushes their weight around, and abuses its power. I never said anything about wanting more tags and more quality hunts. I was satisfied with the way the hunt structure was. My problem is in the way they distribute the tags. All you want to do is defend the GFD. I don't know what your connection is with it. Years ago they had a fair way of distributing the tags. If you got drawn for an archery elk tag you couldn't apply again for 3 years. This was no good, because that way they couldn't get their application fee. So tell me the problem with the preference point system. If they would go with this system, or at least have the draw pocess overseen by an independent accounting firm to guarantee no hanky panky. Sorry I don't trust any Government agency that has complete control of them selves without any checks and balances.

And as for you aplauding the members you mentioned, you sound like the GFD you aplauded them because they had the same view as you. God forbid anyone didn't like the way the GFD was running things

[TLH]

Hawkeye--born here 48 years ago--hunting was great back then--buy a tag, go hunting--things change. You yourself state that people don't like change--could that be why you don't like what you see?? I have had a lot of luck the past 15 years hunting--in fact, i have done better the last 15 years than i did for all the years before that. I find animals everywhere i hunt and i usually get what i go after. I hear people say that the hunting is bad--i hear them say that it will only get worst but i don't see it. So, to answer your question--i have been right here in my own state hunting deer, elk and antelope and a turkey from time to time. I really have no issue with the game and fish. Yes, they run their place like a business and sometimes they make mistakes just like you and i, but for the most part they do a pretty good job. The survey was sent to everyone that put in for deer and elk--the majority of the game and fish customers stated they wanted more opportunity's to hunt--what would you expect the game and fish do? Should they ignore what their customers want? Or should they just listen to the minority of us who would rather hunt better animals with less hunters?? I think if you know anything about business then you know what that answer is--the ADA did a great job with their survey--why the game and fish didn't listen i have no idea--but they did listen to the Arizona Elk Society didn't they? So, why do you think that is??

 

I am very active in all of the meetings that game and fish have--i am very active with a lot of groups including the Arizona Deer association--i am actually the youth chairman now that Stan has left. I also do a lot of things with the working people of the game and fish like working on water hole projects and fence removal--i spend the time out there helping the wildlife and making their habitat better in every way i can. You sound as if you gave up and that is too bad. If you love the wildlife and the outdoors as much as you state then why not get back in to it and help some of these groups.

 

I hunt in other states and i can tell you that Arizona is better than all of them i hunt for quality of animals, maybe not in numbers but quality for sure.

 

 

I think you said it all when you said you do not trust government--but where would we be with out our government??

[hawkeye]

TLH

I agree with some of the things you said but I strongly disagree with some also. You took only parts of what I said to react to. I didn't say I didn't trust Government. I said I didn't trust government without any oversight. I should add I don't trust government when there is large amounts of money being dealt with. You also said that you have hunted deer, Elk, antelope, and turkey. Well in my whole life of putting in for antelope I have never drawn a tag. I have only drawn one spring turkey tag in my life. You work with the GFD, so I can understand you being quick to defend them but in my 51 years of living in Arizona I have felt abandon by the whole system. A lot of people on the inside feel the same as you. But there are a lot that have some of the opinions I do. I saw a lot of them at some meetings when the whole subject we were dealing with was changed when the topic started getting ugly. Please tell me why you don't think that the preference points would work in Arizona. If the GFD is doing everything on the up and up then why is everything so secret when it comes to the actual act of the draw. This is my biggest problem with the present system. That and the wording on the questionair sent out to the hunters. They were worded so that only one of two outcomes could happen. Why then didn't they ask the very question every body has told me they would have liked to been asked. "Would you like to move almost all of the december tags to november and add some more to november. I know, you know and the hunters of arizona know what the outcome of that question was, and they ignored it. Ignoring the ADA survey and putting the phony one out that they did, was the ultimate betrayal. It has only been in the last couple of years I have become so bitter with the GFD. Also after hunting in Colorado and seeing how they treat their hunters. The draw seems more fair and the way they listen to input. I feel the only thing the AZGFD sees is money.