Meeting the In-Laws.....

[trphyhntr]

nature is my church.

[Tucson John]

FAITH........is a gift..........not all have received,,,,,,,YET!

[ctafoya]

My dad tried to force me to go to church, even tho he was too busy to go himself. After a few weeks my mom quit making me go. I went to a christian school for two years and they tried forcing their beliefs down my throat. It didn't work so they expelled me. That turned me off to religion all together. I do not believe in religion or god. Like some of you have mentioned I just try to be the best person I can be. My kids are free to practice whatever they want as long as it is really their choice and have not been talked into or out of anything. People have tried to get my kids to go to church with them while they were in scouts. They didn't want to because they felt they were being pushed into it because the entire pack or whatever its called was all of the same faith and they felt on the outside. They never went back to scouts after that by their own choice. I have no problem with people talking to myself or my children about their faith and what they believe. But don't force it, and don't ring my doorbell. Religious beliefs are a touchy subject that needs careful approach, and when done correctly you can have a great conversation about it. My wife feels the same as I do so I can't really say how we would get along if it were different. I think as long as people are open and don't chastise others for what they believe or don't believe we can all pretty much get along.

[Saguaro]

I was lucky growing up. My family did go to church but never made it a weekly requirement. In the last 20 years, I've been in that church house maybe 9 times. I agree with Trophy, nature is my church and I worship all the time.

[muledeerarea33?]

Was in show low last weekend and stopped at Walmart, left the dog and wife in the truck. When I came out the wife was still laughing about how the dog bit a guy who tried to drop some literature thru the half opened window. We're both raised catholic, neither practice it but have a love for god, country, and our fellow man. We choose to spend our Sundays and Wednesdays doing outdoor activities than in a stuffy building dressed up. I've found more godly virtue in my hikes around the house than I have in the church building. To each their own, believe or don't, just don't force it on me.

[bojangles]

Last night i went to hear a MD professor talk about intelligent design in the birth process. it was absolutely fascinating. The discussion was about how the human heart could not evolve. Things like laminar (sp) blood flow (different oxygenated blood and less oxygenated blood flowing different directions to different places at the same time in the same vein) the development of vessels to the lungs during the birth process, development of heart valves etc. couldn't evolve. They have to be there in place fully functioning or life ends instantaneously.

 

Last month i went to hear a geologist talk about the 1 year development of the grand canyon. It was fascinating.

 

 

So, i'm a believer. I choose the Baptist theology, which pretty much says you can't force someone to believe. Kids included.

 

So, man, i wish you guys would believe. For me, it's so clear. For others, i guess not.

 

I guess i became a believer because of this one fact, I refuse to believe that you and I are accidents.

 

And if we are here on purpose, i had to find out what that purpose was.

 

But it's true, if you try to force someone to believe, they really don't believe.

 

It's voluntary or it's fake.

[AmericanThunder]

Last night i went to hear a MD professor talk about intelligent design in the birth process. it was absolutely fascinating. The discussion was about how the human heart could not evolve. Things like laminar (sp) blood flow (different oxygenated blood and less oxygenated blood flowing different directions to different places at the same time in the same vein) the development of vessels to the lungs during the birth process, development of heart valves etc. couldn't evolve. They have to be there in place fully functioning or life ends instantaneously.

 

Last month i went to hear a geologist talk about the 1 year development of the grand canyon. It was fascinating.

 

 

So, i'm a believer. I choose the Baptist theology, which pretty much says you can't force someone to believe. Kids included.

 

So, man, i wish you guys would believe. For me, it's so clear. For others, i guess not.

 

I guess i became a believer because of this one fact, I refuse to believe that you and I are accidents.

 

And if we are here on purpose, i had to find out what that purpose was.

 

But it's true, if you try to force someone to believe, they really don't believe.

 

It's voluntary or it's fake.

 

The great thing about science is, it's true whether you believe in it or not.

[Antmo23]

^^^^was just about to say that...

[venadito]

American Thunder this is a great topic you started...Everyone that has posted has been right on.

 

That is what makes this topic so true, whether you believe or you don't...Science vs. Creationism

 

I use what I've learned along the way to be a better person. One does not have to go to church to be a better person. Some may argue that their interpretation of the bible is spot on others argue that the bible is off.

 

Whatever side you're on the focus should be the common thread and that is to have compassion, kindness, and patience towards everyone.

 

It doesn't matter who inspires me but as long as I'm motivated to be better today than I was yesterday.

[AmericanThunder]

Thanks venadito. I must say I think it has generated some great discussion without anyone flying off the handle. Which tends to be the case when you talk about religion, politics, etc. I hope it continues this way. I am also surprised to find that I am not the only one on here that thinks the way I do. The outsiders (non-hunters) looking in tend to type cast the typical hunter as the ultra conservative, red neck, far right wing, extreme christian, who bashes everything. The outdoors are for everyone and this proves it.

[AZHog]

American Thunder this is a great topic you started...Everyone that has posted has been right on.

 

That is what makes this topic so true, whether you believe or you don't...Science vs. Creationism

 

I use what I've learned along the way to be a better person. One does not have to go to church to be a better person. Some may argue that their interpretation of the bible is spot on others argue that the bible is off.

 

Whatever side you're on the focus should be the common thread and that is to have compassion, kindness, and patience towards everyone.

 

It doesn't matter who inspires me but as long as I'm motivated to be better today than I was yesterday.

 

Appreciate and like all of the good dialog here. An intelligent and respectful discussion of opinions and ideas. As a creationist, believer in intelligent design, I really don't see it as a science vs. creationism. I think we all need to understand and determine our belief system in light of the scientific evidence. If you are blindly believing something, whether you believe creationism, agnosticism or atheism, or??? without studying the evidence, then you can easily be deceived. The challenge is always determining what is scientific fact vs. scientific hypothesis vs. scientific theory. Macro Evolution (one species evolved to another, like monkeys evolved into mankind) is often taught as fact, yet the evidence isn't there. I don't believe the fossil evidence supports the theory of macro evolution. There is plenty of evidence for micro evolution (where there are adaptations within a species like birds' beaks growing longer or shorter based on the environment).

 

That said, when I look at the workings of the human body, from the eye or the blood clotting mechanism or the internal workings of cells and proteins, I see "irreducibly complex" machines or mechanisms (meaning the entire mechanism has to be in place in order for it to work). If the blood clotting mechanism "evolved" over time, any injury causing bleeding would have been fatal.

 

The biggest reason I believe in Intelligent Design has to be DNA. I'm old enough that we didn't know about or study DNA back when I was in school. Having studied it some recently, I just can't believe it just happened randomly. DNA is the information, the complex set of instructions, telling the body how to create and reproduce cells. Per the National Human Genome research institute (http://www.genome.gov/25520880): "DNA contains the instructions needed for an organism to develop, survive and reproduce. To carry out these functions, DNA sequences must be converted into messages that can be used to produce proteins, which are the complex molecules that do most of the work in our bodies." You can't have a cell, organ or a body without the DNA. DNA is information, instructions, messages. What do we know about information and its source of origin? As far as I know, the only source of information is intelligence. Some form of intelligence has to be present to generate the instructions and messages contained in DNA. I don't see this happening on a random evolutionary basis. Based on DNA alone, I believe there must be an Intelligent Designer/Creator. Again, this is my personal viewpoint based on my observation of the scientific evidence currently available. I wish all of you the best as you study the scientific evidence and come to your own beliefs about the origins of the universe, mankind, etc.

 

Thanks for reading and may all your arrows and bullets shoot straight and find their mark. May your freezers be full of game at the end of this year's hunts!

[AmericanThunder]

AZHog - I am oversimplifying here, but Macro evolution is simply micro evolution over a longer period of time. Believing one without the other is like believing in inches but not miles. You are right when you say micro evolution is everything that happens below a species, but the changes that happen after this time frame are what make up macro evolution.

 

Using your example, that is exactly why something like a blood clotting mechanism would need to "evolve" over time. It seems that most people misinterpret the word evolution and should be focusing more on natural selection. Natural selection is the process by which species adapt to their environment. Natural selection leads to evolutionary change when individuals with certain characteristics have a greater survival or reproductive rate than other individuals in a population and pass on these inheritable genetic characteristics to their offspring. Simply put, when a species adapts to it's environment in a certain way it will either succeed and live or fail and die. The successful ones live to produce more offspring with these same traits built in for survival.

 

The DNA issue is still a topic that many people debate, but I believe the leading case for it can best be described in the link below. It is where natural selection gets it's start.

 

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIE2bDetailsoforigin.shtml

[AZHog]

Thanks for the clarification American Thunder. This is where we can agree to disagree. I believe micro evolution, or adaptation, can and has been proven within species. However, I've researched and found no evidence of evolution from one species, or kind, to another. I would appreciate any links to empirical evidence showing otherwise. Again, we can agree to disagree on this point. Thanks for the link on a possible origin of RNA and DNA. I glanced through it and understand the hypothesis being set forth. As you said, there is still a debate as this is just a hypothesis without any real empirical evidence. Again, we can agree to disagree and still respect each other for coming to differing conclusions.

 

Personally, I can't come to believe that something happened out of nothing or that life just happened out of inorganic material. That's just me as I spent a few years in the "Show Me" state of Missouri. I'm a numbers guy and I can't come to believe that all of the cosmic constants required to sustain life here on earth just happened out of random chance. I don't have the numbers handy, but the probability of all of this happening and life being created is so astronomically small that in any other situation we would claim it is impossible. I realize that many people believe otherwise and that's ok as we're all entitled to reach our own conclusions based on the evidence presented (as was evident the past 2 weeks when i was a juror on a criminal case in Superior court).

 

Again, thanks for the information and insight American Thunder. Appreciate your taking the time to articulate and share your knowledge and understanding! I really enjoy these discussions as they make me think through what I believe in light of additional and sometimes new information.

[Snapshot]

Thanks venadito. I must say I think it has generated some great discussion without anyone flying off the handle. Which tends to be the case when you talk about religion, politics, etc. I hope it continues this way. I am also surprised to find that I am not the only one on here that thinks the way I do. The outsiders (non-hunters) looking in tend to type cast the typical hunter as the ultra conservative, red neck, far right wing, extreme christian, who bashes everything. The outdoors are for everyone and this proves it.

Exactly right. I feel that those that put that "stereotypical label" on us, should spend a week in the outdoors with us. I believe they would have a much more positive outlook about sportsman.

[Antmo23]

Thanks venadito. I must say I think it has generated some great discussion without anyone flying off the handle. Which tends to be the case when you talk about religion, politics, etc. I hope it continues this way. I am also surprised to find that I am not the only one on here that thinks the way I do. The outsiders (non-hunters) looking in tend to type cast the typical hunter as the ultra conservative, red neck, far right wing, extreme christian, who bashes everything. The outdoors are for everyone and this proves it.

 

And here I was thinking I was the only one...