A new rule idea for Arizona

[Idahocoueshunter]

JstMe, I think your plan has merrit. In other states, such as Idaho, your only eligable to draw either a special buck or bull tag every other year. Of course there are plenty of zones were both residents and non residents can buy over the counter deer and elk tags, but the primo units are draw only. I also think a non resident once in a lifetime elk tag may have potential too. Idaho has a 10% cap on non residents and it seems to work well. I hope the issue gets resolved down there quickly and equally.

 

As a non resident, applying to hunt in Arizona, or any other state for that matter, I don't feel we need special treatment. USO used greed to get an end to a means, and unfortunatly lumped all non residents into this situation, at least in the eyes of some. I'm pleased to see Will Primo (if it is truly him) denounce USO's stance.

 

 

See you on the mountain, Craig.

[Guest Ernesto C]

JstMe Welcome to this the most magnificen site,and again thanks to Amanda.

We understand you dissapointment with this "USO thing" especially mi wife is with you on this one becuase she did not get a tag. She say for now on she will always put for the strip so they can have one tag less when she gets drawn. Once again welcome and God bless you.

 

Hey muskrat predator calling is really exciting.You should try it so you can feel all that adrenaline rushing trough your body when you see a coyote (sometimes two) running at you,oh men I can't describe that feeling.

I personally use a 222 caliber for them so far I like it,for bobcats and foxes I use a 22 Magnum I also love it.

 

Take care and God bless.

 

Ernesto C.

[Guest Guest_JstMe]

Thank you all for your warm welcome, and for reading my post with a positive instead of a negative. I have noticed that some other boards do not appreciate women posting, as their responses are very noticeable and negative. I also do not appreciate the bashing that some posters put inregards to women. I hunt just as hard as my husband does, and try with all my might to achieve a harvest. Even though I strick out with my bow, I truely love just being out in the outdoors enjoying all that nature gives us!

I thought long and hard before I put my first post up here, as I thought it might unnerve NRS and cause more bashing, and that is not what I want at all. Like I said I dont dislike NRs, I just think their needs to be a new ruleing in regards to numbers, tags etc for NR hunters. If we dont do something soon, our herds here in arizona will dwindle to nothing, and it will all be due to the fact that we could not get a handle on proper management of them! And if we continue to let the one with the most money rule our state because of greed, then we will be in really really dire strates!

On a lighter note, were going to the happening this weekend, going to enjoy some fun shooting, cool air, and just relax with the family!

Thanks again!

JstMe

[hawkeye]

years ago, in Az., there was a 3 year waiting period for elk and pronghorn. if you got a tag, you couldn't apply again for 3 years. they also had a deal that if you weren't draw for a certain number of years, you automatically got a permit. seems like you had to save your rejection slips for proof. anyway, it got to where there were going to be more people elligible for the automatic tags than there were permits, and they did away with it. i remember my uncle had one more year to go to get a pronghorn permit when they did away with the program. he wernt none to happy. the same thing has happened with bonus points. there are so many people with the max number of bonus points now, that it doesn't make a lot of difference in your odds. when bonus points were first started they said it would get to be that way. simple statistics. some guys will get a good elk permit several years in a row or maybe 3 out of 5. some guys never seem to get a permit. it's just the "luck of the draw". Arizona is between a rock and hard place. there isn't a lot of good habitat for game here, but what habitat we have seems to produce some great trophies. and there are some great populations, per square mile. we just don't have enough of those square miles that have good habitat. everybody wants to get a permit here. and the boom in the elk population,(an animal that really isn't native to Az. we had merriams elk before) has really hurt the deer population in a lot of areas. are we over managing elk to the detrement of deer? according to the game wardens i can get a straight answer out of, yes. right now we have world records in elk, pronghorn, coues, black bear, and desert bighorn. that's just what i can think of in b&c off the top o' my head. what did they say this year, 277,000 people applied for permits in Az?!?! that's a lot of folks. i'm a native Arizonian. 4th generation. i think anything that takes away from resident's chances of a permit is a rotten deal. we live year. we pay the bills. outside what little my wife and i saved last year, every dime was spent in Az. uso didn't contribute as much as i did to Az's economy last year. and i'm just one guy. how much did just the folks on this site contribute to Az's economy last year? millions, that's how much. but they (uso and nonresidents) get things in their favor? and it takes away from our odds? don't seem too fair to me. yeah, we need to do something different. don't know what it's gonna be, but things like waiting periods and stuff just turn into pyramids after a few years. that's why i'm so yanked off at the g&f over their attitude toward predators and their inability to stand up and do some real management and control them. think what it would do for game if the lion and coyotes could be controlled? and they can be if they tell the politics to take a hike and just get it done. everyone should buy a lion tag every year and if they see one shoot it, and shoot every coyote they can. won't hurt a thing. no way you're ever going to hurt their population. they're too opportunistic and too slick, as a whole. i've talked to biologists who feel there are more lions and coyotes right now than at any time in history. there are so many chicken coops, calves, sheep, etc. that they don't have to rely on game, which is much more difficult to catch. the game they get is just a bonus, plus the young ones can practice on domestic animals until they good enough to catch wild animals, without starving. don't know what's gonna happen, but i sure hope someone that the g&f will listen too can figure it out. and there ain't no silver bullet. wonder what they'll do? if they'll just give me a deer and elk tag every year, one desert sheep and one mountain sheep tag and pronghorn tag every 2 or 3 years, i'll quit gripin' tho and leave the rest of ya to be jealous. i know i'd probably git shot before too long, but dang i could have some fun until then.

I have lived in Arizona all of my life, which is 50 years. One thing I can tell you is that it seems the G&F is only worried about money. Not game management. Other states use a preference point system. Which means the people with the most points get the permits. So you know going in that it will take a certain number of years before you will get drawn. Colorado is that way. And it works pretty well. In Arizona My son is 25 and has only been deer hunting 3 times in his life. When he was young I couldn't wait untill he was old enough to hunt, but when he was, he only got to go a couple of times. You may think he was putting in for premium units but thats not true. He was putting in for 24A and surrounding area. Some people seem to get drawn most years and an unlucky few seem never to be drawn. The reason change will not be in the near future is that there is too much money to be made in the present system. The Game & Fish just this drawing recieved more than One Million, Three Hundred and Sixty Thousand Dollars in just non refunded application fees. (Now thats a pretty good business).

 

The only way I can see any type of fair change happening in Arizona Game Management and hunting application reform is to take it out of the hands of the Governor and to Make the Game and Fish Commisioner an elected office. This way we will have some acountability.

 

hawkeye

[coues addict]

_JstMe

Welcome to CWT site . I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. I am a nonresident and I have been hunting Az. for around 25 years now. I don`t feel nonresidents should have the same chance at the draw as residents either. I hope your state gets things worked out and I feel they eventually will. I had no problem with the 10% nr cap. I think most of the members here had to blow off a little steam, and I don`t blame them. Now its time to get guys like Lark and Az. Guide or me and go down to fish and game and see what can be done to fix the problem. The problem I fear is similar to here in Ca. The system is totally driven by money!!!!!!!!!. I would love to see Dianne Fienstein go for a hike in Cuyamacca State Park. Oh ya. but, it will never happen. She was one of the strong supporters of the tree huggers over here. Now we got Lion`s killing hikers and bikers because of the fact that we don`t have lion hunting anymore. I am still Pi_ _ ed. Game management never even gets concidered on these decisions. Well, again welcome to the site and if you like to hunt like the rest of us I don`t care what sex you are you just keep on voicing you opinions and don`t take no crap from anyone. Coues Addict

P.S. Amanda`s site is awesome

[hawkeye]

I hate to say it, but, as long as the G&F are making about one and a half million dollars off of the non-refunded apps. There will not be any kind of change in respect for a fair draw system. If anyone believes that the AZGFD isn't motivated by greed and not by game management then I don't know where you have been for the last 20 years. There is no way they are going to give up this windfall.

 

I am not sure how to do it, but I sure would like to start a petition to have the Arizona Game and Fish Commisioner become an elected official and not an appointed position by the Governor. If they were elected then they would have to at least listen to the public and there biologists, (which at the present time they don't). They have there meetings and listen with closed ears, then do as they please.

 

Also if you read the judges report he said all Arizona had to do is to put up some kind of defense to there position for him to consider and they didn't. What does that tell you about what happened. The Commisioner secretly likes what happened in respect that the more non-resident applications mean more money in the coffer.

 

It is time for all of us hunters to become involved. Call the Governors office and let your feelings be known, as she is the only one who has any power over the AZGFD. Also remember at election time to go out and vote. If all of us hunters could stand together we would have some political clout.

[Diamondbackaz]

Hawkeye, you do not want the commissioners to be an elected. This would make things worse.

[hawkeye]

thats what they want you to believe. I'll tell you what when you have the amount of free money they have coming in things will never change.

 

Let me ask you a question.

Do you actualy think that the bonus point system is a fair system? The only reason they stopped the every 3 year application for elk is that they figured a way to squeeze more money out of us. And also with the bonus point system no one can trace any descrepancy in the draw. After the draw a few years ago my son had 5 elk points but when he recieved his pink slip it showed only 1. When I called about it I was told that it was just a print error and that the points were there before the draw.(sure!). Also the only way I got his points back is because I keep all records and had to show them to them. I had no way to show that they screwed him.

 

Since the commision started getting millions from the lottery our liscense fees still keep going up. And the residence of Arizona keep paying the bill.

 

Don't think I am anti AZGFD I am just sick of the way things have been going.

 

Colorado has a preference point system. With this system you will eventually get a tag if you keep putting in. Not in Arizona someone could actually go his whole life without an elk tag.

[Guest Guest]

If the commission is formed by open election then any panty waist, prarie dog kissin tree hugger can run for office and win. The majority of the people in this state came from somewhere else, can't tell an antelope from an elk and think that the outdoors should be like a Walt Disney movie. Prop 200 a few years back (that failed) was all about avoiding this kind of mentality in open elections concerning wildlife matters. This was a bold move by our Game Dept that was unsupported by the Arizona public.

AZDIAMONDBACK is right - Get rid of the Commission and we will all be very sorry.

Realizing that we are a minority sheds light on the whimpy low profile that the Dept has adopted slowly over the years.

Our strength is not in self destruction, but in organizing to support what good things we have.

Look at what certain oddball fringe groups have done to adversly change laws in our country. Think we don't have power? Think again. If we only had half the passion that anti-hunting and gay & lesbian groups have.

Mike

[Rembrant]

Forgot to log in.

As long as I am being outspoken, I should make myself known.

Mike

[hawkeye]

That is my point exactly. we sit on our butt and cry and wine but don't do a thing. I just contacted the Governor about this subject I will also be in Flagstaff for the next meeting. (Which by the way will be a waist of time) Have you been to any of those meetings.

And here we go again. The commision has every body so scared to make waves lets scare them with the anti hunting groups. Well let me tell you I have drawn a total of 3 times in the last 10 years. Why should I be concerned about the anti's. It looks like I have already lost. Go ahead and stick your head in the sand and be afraid of the anti hunting groups, I'm already afraid of the Arizona Game and Fish Commision.

hawkeye

[Diamondbackaz]

I believe the idea behind the current system was to allow science to dictate wildlife managment and not politics or emotions. There is no question that there is politics within the commissions appointments, and also in their decision making process. I don't think you will ever have a system free of politics. The purpose of the game and fish is wildlife managment, providing hunting opotunities is only one of many of their missions.

[coueshunter]

Lark, your neck was almost totally white in that post.......LOL........first off for the great lady that posted the original. You are correct in your post, I have two boys and a wife and all of us are tagless this year. I am looking into leasing a ranch in Agua Prieta Mexico for this year so I know we can hunt coues at least. It actually is going to be affordable, 2500 per person covers the tag and the ranch accomodations.........self guided....... As to the current AZGFD situation, they will have a solution that will work out for the majority and I am pretty sure it will favor the residents and protect the premium areas that USO is targeting. I think a ton of answers/potential answers will come out in the August commission meeting. As for predators........LARK..........you would have liked being at the ADA meeting we had a couple days ago with Steve Ferrell there.......Stanley was there along with me and it appears that the AZGFD will be coming forward publicly with a statement showing predators have had alot larger impact on wildlife in drought conditions. I know ADA supports your view of killing all the predators we can. There was a great lion hunter present at this meeting, Jim Bedlion who has shot 23 or so cats off 13A & 13B the past five years. There is a real push to kill all we can on the strip and then spread out through the state once the AZGFD shows the results of three-bar and how the rest of the state's wildlife could thrive with a reduction in Predators. Anyway I hope I am not to optimistic but I think come August we will see a better picture of the future.............LARK FOR COMMISSIONER>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Allen...................

[Guest Lark Hubbard]

i'm sittin' here gnawin' on a piece o' elk jerky that my darlin' wife made over the weekend and now i'm worried. too many guys thinkin' like me. might be we oughta all load up and see if we can get a group rate for a shrink. or maybe it ain't a bad deal.

 

as far as electing commissioners, if only people with hunting and fishing licenses could vote, it'd be ok. if it was open to everyone, it wouldn't be a good thing. i agree, there needs to be a change, but an open election would leave a lot of chance of getting radical anti's on the commission. we'd be in worse shape than california. what has to be done is to get rid of this governor to start with. the game and fish needs to stand alone, free from politics. like it is supposed to now, but doesn't. it needs to make it's decisions based on scientific data. and when a hard decision has to be made, they need to make the right one and not be swayed by political pressure. the current commission goes whichever way the wind blows. and i might not be very fair on the governor either, because i think the only current commissioner that "it" chose is the "madam chairman", whatever her name is. can't recall her name offhand. but i don't care if i'm fair or not, just don't like her, "it", whatever ya wanna call it. there needs to be some real live outdoorsmen on the commission. guys who actually get out in the woods and get it done. we pay the bills, give us some representation. i don't feel the game and fish or the state put up a very good fight against this uso deal. it was win win for them. if they won, they'd be heros to joe hunter, if they lost, they'd get extra income from the nonresident permits. can't lose that way. but personally, i don't see where the commission, the director, or the department in general, cares a lot about everyday folks that like to use the wilderness. they worried about politics. about scratching the right back. about pleasing some other board they happen to be on. like i say, Arizona for Arizonans. and new mexico for new mexican's etc. if a guy can't have a reasonable chance to hunt his home state and nonresidents have preference, it's a sad deal. need some guys who have some imagination, and can see down the road a ways. in shroufe, i see an old guy wanting to retire. i can also see a real pattern of screwin' over residents and hunters in general. whatever, there just needs to be a change. a transfusion. across the board. don't know what they answer is, but politics isn't it.

[hawkeye]

HEY LARK!

 

YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE MONEY ABOUT THE AVERAGE GUY NEEDS TO HAVE SOME SAY ON THE COMMISION, BUT THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. AT THE MOMENT. MORE THAN POLOTICS RUN THIS COMMISION, MOSTLY IT IS GREED. THESE GUYS HAVE MORE MONEY COMING IN THAN EVER BEFORE, AND WHEN MONEY IN THE AMOUNTS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS INVOLVED CORRUPTION AND SPECIAL INTEREST WILL ALWAYS PREVAIL. WITH THE LOTTERY MONEY AND THE HIKE IN FEES AND SUCH THERE IS TOO MUCH MONEY SITTING ON THE TABLE FOR ANYONE TO DO THE RIGHT THING. WHICH IS TO REVAMP THE DRAW SYSTEM WITH A PREFERENCE POINT SYSTEM, OR A THREE YEAR WATING PERIOD AFTER GETTING DRAWN. THEY WILL NEVER GO TO A WAITING PERIOD BECAUSE THEY WOULD LOSE MILLIONS IN NON-REFUNDED APPLICATION FEES. BUT A PREFERENCE POINT SYSTEM WOULD BE MORE FAIR AND THEY COULD KEEP THERE MONEY COMING IN.

WELL NOW THIS CREATES A NEW PROBLEM. IF WE HAD A PREFERENCE POINT SYSTEM THEY COULDN'T MESS WITH THE DRAW BECAUSE THEN PEOPLE COULD SEE HOW THEY MANIPULATE THE SYSTEM. IN COLORADO THE PERMITS ARE DRAWN WITH THE MOST POINTS GETTING THE TAGS AND THEN WORKING DOWN FROM THAT. IF SOMEONE GOT A TAG WITH LESS POINT THAN YOU YOU COULD BITCH ABOUT IT. WITH OUR PRESENT SYSTEM THERE IS NO ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THE COMMISION.

AND NO ACCOUNTABILITY SEEMS TO BE THE STATE OF AFFAIRS FOR ARIZONA GOVERNMENT IN GENERAL.

 

I WILL GET OFF OF THE SUBJECT NOW BECAUSE IT IS JUST EATING ME UP INSIDE TO SEE THIS GOING ON AND NOT BEING ABLE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

I HAVE STARTED HUNTING IN OTHER STATES FOR MY ENJOYMENT AND OTHER THAN BEING TOO EXPENSIVE AM HAVING A BALL. IN OCTOBER I AM HUNTING NORTHERN COLORADO FOR MULE DEER, AND HOPE TO DRAW AN ANTELOPE TAG IN WYOMING NEXT YEAR. I CAN'T AFFORD IT BUT IF I WANT TO HUNT THIS IS WHAT BEING AN ARIZONA HUNTER HAS COME TO.

 

I WISH WE COULD TALK EVERY HUNTER IN ARIZONA TO NOT PUT IN FOR THE DRAW NEXT YEAR AND SEE HOW THEY WOULD FUNCTION WITHOUT THERE MONEY. THAT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN BECAUSE WE CANT SEE EYE TO EYE ON MUCH OF ANYTHING AND THE COMMISION IS COUNTING ON THAT.

IN A MONTH OR TWO THIS WILL ALL BLOW OVER AND NOT ANYONE WILL DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT BUT BLOW OFF STEAM, AND THE GAME AND FISH WILL LAUGH ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK.

 

BELIEVE ME THE GAME AND FISH OFFICERS ARE FED UP WITH THE PRESENT SITUATION ALSO, BUT THERE SUPERIORS DON'T LISTEN TO THEM EITHER. I HAVE TALKED TO A COUPLE AND THERE IS NOTHING THEY CAN DO WITHOUT FEAR OF LOSING THERE JOBS. THEY JUST HOPE ENOUGH OF US WILL RAISE heck AND GET SOMETHING DONE, AND I DON'T THINK THAT WILL HAPPEN.

 

HAWKEYE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!