A new rule idea for Arizona

[JstMe]

I am new at posting here, but I have been coming to this site for months reading the posts, and thinking about what is said. I am a women hunter, and maybe some wont give my post much thought, but I love to hunt and am very dissapointed with the AZ ruleing! I was dejected again for bull this year and everything else, my whole family was dejected on everything for that matter. Its hard to accept sometimes, I dont like getting a not drawn response year after year. But I am thankful that I will still be able to do archery deer and turkey, at least its time spent in the woods!!! As I told my husband I should of started hunting years ago, as its becoming harder and harder here to get a tag, and I really hate to have to tell my Jr Hunters another big zero. So with that in mind I have been looking over different states and what rules they emplement if they have elk and here is what I found for the state of MI.....

 

* New Ineligibility Periods for Elk License Recipients. * Beginning in 2004. the ineligibility period to apply for, obtain or purchase a future elk license has changed. A person issued an antlerless elk license in 2004 is not eligible to apply for, obtain or purchase an elk license from 2005 through 2014. In addition, any person issued an elk license for the taking of a bull elk after 2003 is not eligible to apply for, obtain or purchase an elk license for the remainder of his or her life.* Now why cant we implement something like this for NR? This is the rule that I found for the state of Michigan! Granted they only have about 800-900 elk in the state and only give about 140 some elk tags out for the year. Now please dont think that I am tottaly against NRs, I am not. I may not like USO, but I know that not all guides are like them and Taulman. Hes a shister, and hes tottaly distructed things! But this rule for Elk seems interesting to say the least, and maybe something could be said for deer also. I know others have said whats the use, USO is going after other states to, and I know that. But its just a thought, and somehow AZ just has to come up with a new ruleing and fix all that has gone wrong, and sometime in my lifetime would be really good!!!! Thanks for reading!

JstMe

[Kevin]

In New Mexico, 15-20 years ago, we were only elgible every other year for the elk drawing. I assume it changed to our current system because of the increase in the elk herd not because of another law suit. Perhaps you are on to something.

 

Kevin

[muskrat]

In New Brunswick, where I grew up - once you got drawn for your moose tag, you had to wait 5 years until you could enter the draw again.

[stanley]

Well I'll tell you that something definitely has to change! I'm sure the G&F will get plenty of feedback in the coming months!!!

 

I remember back in the 70s (before I was old enough to hunt), you were eligible for an elk tag only once every three years. I think they changed it when the herds started getting so big, but maybe it's time to go back to something like that...

 

S.

 

[KGAINES]

Does California even allow non-residents to hunt their elk, maybe non-residents should only be allowed 1 bull elk in a lifetime in AZ. The way things are going now it might be that way anyways for the unlucky ones. We need to unite as residents for our voices to be heard, nobody cares what a few people are saying unless there is a lot of money involved.

[Guest Guest_JstMe]

I am really glad to read your resceptive posts thank you!!! I think it would be a very interesting idea to let a NR only get a bull elk either once in a lifetime or at least have a set years limit as to how long they have to wait to put in to try again. I have lived here all my life, and I know alot of long time residents that have tried for years and years and never achieve a tag, just alot of bonus points that still do not seem to help them out!!! Some of these ideas really need to be looked at that is for sure!!! Would love to hear more ideas!!

JstMe

[Guest Lark Hubbard]

years ago, in Az., there was a 3 year waiting period for elk and pronghorn. if you got a tag, you couldn't apply again for 3 years. they also had a deal that if you weren't draw for a certain number of years, you automatically got a permit. seems like you had to save your rejection slips for proof. anyway, it got to where there were going to be more people elligible for the automatic tags than there were permits, and they did away with it. i remember my uncle had one more year to go to get a pronghorn permit when they did away with the program. he wernt none to happy. the same thing has happened with bonus points. there are so many people with the max number of bonus points now, that it doesn't make a lot of difference in your odds. when bonus points were first started they said it would get to be that way. simple statistics. some guys will get a good elk permit several years in a row or maybe 3 out of 5. some guys never seem to get a permit. it's just the "luck of the draw". Arizona is between a rock and hard place. there isn't a lot of good habitat for game here, but what habitat we have seems to produce some great trophies. and there are some great populations, per square mile. we just don't have enough of those square miles that have good habitat. everybody wants to get a permit here. and the boom in the elk population,(an animal that really isn't native to Az. we had merriams elk before) has really hurt the deer population in a lot of areas. are we over managing elk to the detrement of deer? according to the game wardens i can get a straight answer out of, yes. right now we have world records in elk, pronghorn, coues, black bear, and desert bighorn. that's just what i can think of in b&c off the top o' my head. what did they say this year, 277,000 people applied for permits in Az?!?! that's a lot of folks. i'm a native Arizonian. 4th generation. i think anything that takes away from resident's chances of a permit is a rotten deal. we live year. we pay the bills. outside what little my wife and i saved last year, every dime was spent in Az. uso didn't contribute as much as i did to Az's economy last year. and i'm just one guy. how much did just the folks on this site contribute to Az's economy last year? millions, that's how much. but they (uso and nonresidents) get things in their favor? and it takes away from our odds? don't seem too fair to me. yeah, we need to do something different. don't know what it's gonna be, but things like waiting periods and stuff just turn into pyramids after a few years. that's why i'm so yanked off at the g&f over their attitude toward predators and their inability to stand up and do some real management and control them. think what it would do for game if the lion and coyotes could be controlled? and they can be if they tell the politics to take a hike and just get it done. everyone should buy a lion tag every year and if they see one shoot it, and shoot every coyote they can. won't hurt a thing. no way you're ever going to hurt their population. they're too opportunistic and too slick, as a whole. i've talked to biologists who feel there are more lions and coyotes right now than at any time in history. there are so many chicken coops, calves, sheep, etc. that they don't have to rely on game, which is much more difficult to catch. the game they get is just a bonus, plus the young ones can practice on domestic animals until they good enough to catch wild animals, without starving. don't know what's gonna happen, but i sure hope someone that the g&f will listen too can figure it out. and there ain't no silver bullet. wonder what they'll do? if they'll just give me a deer and elk tag every year, one desert sheep and one mountain sheep tag and pronghorn tag every 2 or 3 years, i'll quit gripin' tho and leave the rest of ya to be jealous. i know i'd probably git shot before too long, but dang i could have some fun until then.

[KGAINES]

Lark, I think it is somebody like you that we need on the commission, you are a resident who tells it like it is, I think you scared a few of the non-residents by what you said, but you really don't seem like the kind of person who would intentionally do harm to somebody ( you did make them wonder about every resident in the state though), our state is just that OURS, and we need to keep it that way. I don't mind the people that come from out of state that hunt here, but you get a few that think we owe them something because they have money or want more money.

One thing I noticed in the regulations is that you can take as many lions in some units until the harvest is reached and they don't count against your one lion per year bag limit, we all need to have a lion tag, and check the regulations because you might be able to have more than that.

Good luck and God bless

[muskrat]

Like I've mentioned before - I'd love to learn how to hunt lions, bears, predators, etc. I'd probably even make some stories out of the trips.

 

I also took the money I had set aside for tags, and joined several sportsmen's organization in the state - ABA, Wildlife Council, etc.. I figure we need a unified voice to present our views to AZGF

[az4life]

Great posts, and good plan Muskrat. At least make the effort to lobby the AZGFD on behalf of state hunters and sportsmen (Sportswomen too)

[Guest Lark Hubbard]

muskrat, buy a varmint call and get serious about callin' vermin. tons o' fun. year round season and no limits. i never go anywhere without a jackrabbit call in my shirt pocket. they're not quite as versatile as a diaphram elk or turkey call, but you can do some neat stuff with one. and you never know when you might call in a lion. a friend's son saw some tracks in the desert near florence. went back the next day and called in a big ol' tom and shot it. you talk about a rush, when you look up and see a coyote or fox or bobcat or even a bear or lion coming in! over the years i've called in several bears, one lion, hundreds of coyotes, foxes and bobcats. even a badger once. a lot of times you can make a coues buck get up with a jackrabbit call. once i told a friend that i was gonna go call in a bear on the first day o' the season. he said "yeah, sure". found some sign on the edge of a canyon. called and called and called. my lips were numb. i was thinkin' "man this is a dumb idea". when all the sudden there was a dang bear! shot him and felt pretty cool about things. shot one with my bow during an archery elk hunt once to, in a similar situation. dang, i wish i was young again.

 

as far as me being on the commission, i ain't got enough tact for something like that. plus i ain't well connected politcally. and that is what it takes. it's sorta like a board of directors for a hospital or bank or something like that. you don't neccessarily have to have any experience in the field, just be well connected. that and be photgenic. unless there's a dead animal in the photo, i just don't look too good. hunt varmints fellers. it's a buncha fun and any ol' dummy can do it.

[muskrat]

Thanks for all of the great info, Lark! I'm certainly gonna give it a whirl.

 

Currently, all I own is a 7mm Mag and a muzzle loader, so I'll probably buy a used rifle for predators, at least until I figure out how much I like it. What calibre could you folks recommend that would be reasonable for foxes, coyotes, and bobcats - but would also work on a bear or lion? (Which is really what I'll be after)

 

 

Sorry for hijacking the thread, guys

[TAM]

Muskrat, your 7mm Mag will work just fine on Foxes, coyotes, bobcats, and lions if you just want 'em dead! If you're keeping the hides you may want to use a light weight bullet with rapid expansion like a Nosler Ballistic Tip or Hornady SST (super shock tip). But if your primary target will be a bear I would use a heavier constructed bullet that will provide better penetration for the bear and still do a number on the smaller critters.

[TREESTANDMAN]

Muskrat,

 

I have done a lot of cold calling and had very little luck with predators coming in. I have had a few coyotes and owls come in but that is about it. I have had 100% success calling in coyotes that I have seen and then started calling. That just goes to show that if they aren't pretty close by they probably won't come in. Just don't be discouraged when you try calling and nothing shows. I have not really had the patience to call for 45 minutes-1 hour for bear and lion like they say to call for.

[Guest Lark Hubbard]

over the years i've seen a few coyotes in the distance and called them in. but for the most part, i just find a good place and call. learn how to howl. i use a diaphram elk call. a lot of times that's all it takes. before you quit hackin' on it, they'll be blastin' in. then start with the jackrabbit. howling first seems to really help. i don't know for sure how to call bobcats. all i know is that every once in a while one comes in. main thing is to be where there is one, i guess. you usually don't see em until after you're done. they like to sneak in and watch ya. foxes are plum easy, if you're in a place that has some. you can squeak em right in. worst thing you can do is call on a windy day. you just make smart coyotes. contrary to what ya read, i usually call with the wind. a coyote is usually gonna circle and come in down wind anyway. so i wanna be looking downwind for him. there's a lot of tricks. but you'll learn em. main thing is to just get out there. a 7mm oughta be a great coyote gun. the pelts are worthless anyway. bears and lions are an endurance contest and might take a year to finally have success, but it don't matter, you ain't at home watchin' tv, and that's what's important.