Tines Report post Posted June 18, 2014 The WT buck to doe ratio used to be pretty good at 4:1, but nowadays glassing up 100 does for every buck is crazy. This cant be sound management. To quote what one of the WMs you mentioned told me last year in a southern unit - "We can have a ridiculously low buck to doe ratio, like 100:1, and still get all the does bred. So what we're doing management wise is working." Do these WMs actually have degrees? Or are they making this $hit up as they go? Insanity! Not to defend ridiculous comments like above, but some of these WM's feel the same way we do. They Just can't or won't take a stand to those who actually DO make the "big" decisions. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AZBearhunter Report post Posted June 18, 2014 AZLance hit the nail on the head. Management has become a office job and not one that involves being out in the field actually talking to hunters and being out when these hunts are taking place. AZLance shows through facts that the amount of bucks harvested in 2013 in unit 33 was 828 give or take. However, I fear this number is a lot more. What adds to the staggering 828 WT bucks harvested is taking into consideration the amount of bucks that were WOUNDED (rifle/archery, and died) and never recovered, as well as all the archery harvested WT bucks. Therefore, in 2013 there was probably around 1,000 bucks that were eliminated due to hunting. Now add to the equation, the predation from Mountain lions on WT bucks eliminates (??) amount of bucks each year. We all know that 33 is a lion haven. How is this sustainable long-term??? Our Coues buck populations have to be our priority to ensure that our doe to buck ratio doesn't drop even more. I think we can all agree that deer numbers are lower then in past years, and these past few years of drought are not helping. As other hunters have pointed out, this issue of giving out to many tags is not isolated to unit 33. A prime example of poor management in 33 is the mule deer population. Prior to 2012 there was 2 mule deer hunts with 300 tags a piece (600 total mule deer tags). Last year, as well as this year, there is only 1 hunt with 300 tags. That is a reduction of 50% of the total 600 mule tags that were available in the past. So why were 300 tag taken away from one year to the next? Simply because the mule deer have been hunted to death, literally! If it happened with the mule deer population, can it not happen with the coues populations? Why wait until there is a problem, prevent it from ever happening. We need mandatory check points in each unit for deer to better gather data. We already are mandated to check in out mountain lions, bears and bighorn sheep in the name of gathering data, so why not with deer. Mandatory check in (by phone) for archery hunters was done away with?? Mandatory check in is important, because I have a feeling that there are guys out there that are taking two deer each year, one with their bow and one with a rifle. That is my $0.02 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azelkhunter2 Report post Posted June 18, 2014 Boy this will get shot all to heck...I just spent the last 3 hrs meeting with a G&F field biologist..Went over a ton of deer info, According to the dept deer numbers for both WT & MD are up state wide, Apx 30 bucks per 100 does for all units south of the ditch...They plan to hold tag numbers the same or slightly less in the near future. J /B to answer your question as to why should you complain to a wildlife org....The dept meets with them all several times a yr to get their input on what they have planned for the upcoming yr and the orgs have a great deal of input for both deer and elk and lope.. you guys should do a ride a long with the unit WM'S...See what they do and why....Gather the facts and more info and you might have a better understanding as to why things are done the way they are, At that point take you ideas with facts to the dept, If you dont like the numbers fight to get them lowered !!.....As far as mandatory harvest reporting goes I have pushed for over 10 yrs to have it...The Dept stance is they will loose hunters if they put a system in place that wont allow you to put in for a hunt the next yr if you have not reported the last yrs hunts.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnnie blaze Report post Posted June 18, 2014 Boy this will get shot all to heck...I just spent the last 3 hrs meeting with a G&F field biologist..Went over a ton of deer info, According to the dept deer numbers for both WT & MD are up state wide, Apx 30 bucks per 100 does for all units south of the ditch...They plan to hold tag numbers the same or slightly less in the near future. J /B to answer your question as to why should you complain to a wildlife org....The dept meets with them all several times a yr to get their input on what they have planned for the upcoming yr and the orgs have a great deal of input for both deer and elk and lope.. you guys should do a ride a long with the unit WM'S...See what they do and why....Gather the facts and more info and you might have a better understanding as to why things are done the way they are, At that point take you ideas with facts to the dept, If you dont like the numbers fight to get them lowered !!.....As far as mandatory harvest reporting goes I have pushed for over 10 yrs to have it...The Dept stance is they will loose hunters if they put a system in place that wont allow you to put in for a hunt the next yr if you have not reported the last yrs hunts....I have no doubt for your passion. BUT...... Meeting with wildlife orgs, which I don't know which one your part of, should be a great tool for wildlife mgmt projects. But inform me why your org would know better about harvest rates/populations then the WM? and to pressume that I haven't spent due time with unit 33 WMs is presumptuous in its self. I spent a whole day with McGeehee in the catalinas for a guy I witnessed poach a 100+ and "wasted" a opening morning doing so. The guy got off with a slap on the wrist. Frustrating for me as well as John. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnnie blaze Report post Posted June 18, 2014 And Guerena was taken nodes out of two bucks over the last few years for CWD testing. If mandatory reporting of harvests pisses off hunters.....who cares. If theirs leftover tags....I guarantee I'll purchase a leftover and help out the over population prediction . Much like they did in the 80's with the ridiculous offering of two tags. Believe what you want, but I believe it's all about the paper $$$$ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azelkhunter2 Report post Posted June 18, 2014 I dont recall ever stating that any of the org's know more about harvest rates / populations then the Dept / wm's do. But what they can question is the data behind the numbers, and they do at great length. All of the org's in the state have at one point and time had an effect on tag numbers. I at no time singled you out as someone who should / needs to do a ride along it was a blanket statement to those that dont know how the system works or would like a better understanding of the system and how the numbers are obtained. If you would like more info on what the org's do and how involved they actually are in shaping the hunts and tag numbers please feel free to pm me I would be happy to speak with you, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ThomC Report post Posted June 18, 2014 Mandatory reporting is not the panacea that you think. Believe it or not some people do not tell/report the truth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azelkhunter2 Report post Posted June 18, 2014 Tom I could not agree more, Mandatory reporting should only be a tool used in obtaining more accurate wildlife numbers. The dept currently has a plus or minus of 10% on harvest numbers and total wildlife numbers. I think we as sportsman should do more to help get those numbers right. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elkaholic Report post Posted June 18, 2014 just so everyone knows - ITS NOT just deer - look at the non existence of the elk herds because of the over harvest of cow elk. I know I'm a broken record on this but its not just the deer !! G&F are no longer wildlife managers - they are allowing over harvesting to pay the bills!! they do this by allowing way to many tags you can not cut the number of tags without putting stress on the budget --PERIOD since the good old survey - I 'd bet tag numbers have gone up 500% -they invented new hunts (dates) to squeeze in more hunts - 600 oct tags in a lot of deer units - we never hunted in oct before survey every hunt unit in this Sate - basically has non- stop hunting for deer and or elk starting in aug and runs thru the end of the yr! question - is it time to allow doe tags ? most guys I know are seeing dozens of does before ever finding a buck or at least make SOME of the youth hunts for does in areas of screwed up buck/doe ratio 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnnie blaze Report post Posted June 18, 2014 I'd be curious to know why they haven't introduced doe tags. For archery season if anything. They used to. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
camoremi Report post Posted June 18, 2014 I live in and hunt 33 year around the last couple years the mule deer have been getting hit hard its pretty sad really don't see as good of deer as you use to white tail is alright but I think they need to leave the unit alone and stop giving out so many tags to be honest. I think they need to give a mature doe tag out maybe 15 tags to start cause I watched so many mature old @ss does push the younger ones away n apparently the old ones don't put out good amounts of bucks. Whitetail are there going to take sometime to find I also agree its pretty obvious if G&F can make money off of these units there going to drain every cent out of the units I hate hunting on top of people and also hate having people on top of me. If I see someone going after deer I back off and watch from a distance but I have accidently walked over a hill and sat down and put the binos up and saw a guy stalking well he was getting close to the deer saw me got mad stopped stalk and tore off. The doe frustrate me. I usually hunt unit seven but last year and this year all I see are doe. It's no problem to glass up 60+ doe and just a couple bucks. Me and my buddy also have a spot we call the nursery because to would always see does with young bucks or babies in this area. Scouting this year we saw only a rabbit which I shot lol. I agree with the above post doe/buck ratio is out of whack Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azelkhunter2 Report post Posted June 18, 2014 Has anyone approached the Dept with this question. You might get the tags you want or the answer as to why they dont issue general season doe tags.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AZBearhunter Report post Posted June 18, 2014 Has anyone approached the Dept with this question. You might get the tags you want or the answer as to why they dont issue general season doe tags.... Doe hunts may not be the answer to the problem. Doe's = Buck manufactures. Theoretically if you eliminate does' you are eliminating the buck factories, which could hurt buck numbers even more. Strong doe populations is good in order to sustain reproduction and to replenish deer numbers each year. However, with the current over hunting of bucks in multiple units, buck numbers are never given a chance to repopulate to where the doe-buck ratio is more proportionate. Therefore, the reason that many years ago there was a doe hunt, was because the buck to doe ratios were more proportionate and buck numbers were doing good. As more and more ppl got into hunting through the years, the result of over hunting resulted in eliminating the doe hunt, in order to sustain buck populations. Each year, every mature doe that has been bred can have 1-2 fawns, which is sustaining. For those deer that have twins, this adds to the population which is good. However, if you start taking does out, now your going backwords. You are no longer sustaining the population and less bucks are born each year to help fill the 2450 tags given out each year in 33... Giving out doe tags would mean that buck tags would have to be dropped considerably. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azelkhunter2 Report post Posted June 18, 2014 I had really hoped someone would contact the Dept and then post the info they received, But AZbearhunter pretty much hit the dept's stance....This is what the deer org's in the state have been told when the subject of doe hunts come up. ( this info does NOT include the Kaibab )...Reducing the number of doe's in a unit does not increase the number of bucks in the unit, It will in fact reduce the overall number of deer both buck and doe...The major deciding factor in doe hunts is the carrying capacity of the unit, as long as the unit has the capacity to sustain a healthy deer population doe hunts will not be put in place. A great deal of time and effort is expended each yr on carrying capacity, forage studies are done, Deer are captured and overall weight, body fat, and several other factors all play a part in the decision. The Dept has stated that the past two mild winters have produced a bumper crop of fawns, Fawn numbers are up all over the state, In fact on the Kaibab they counted 103 fawns for every 100 does....They have seen many sets of twins and overall very healthy deer state wide. So when you see tons of doe's be HAPPY !! all those doe's mean the potential for more bucks... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AZLance Report post Posted June 18, 2014 Potential for more deer or more tags? Or both...and the cycle continues. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
