Muzzy Elk in Colorado

[cohofishing]

I killed two bucks this year with 250 grain ballistic tip bullets by Thor behind 110 grains of buckhorn 209. They were not long shots but I was really happy with that load out to 100 yards with open sights. That load with a scope (New Mexico) was good for a two inch group at 200 yards. Buckhorn is cleaner but being new at muzzleloading myself, the trick I learned was keeping the primer pocket really clean. To clean my CVA accura, I used a drill bit and a can of compresses air. I could get three or so shots without cleaning, but would start getting misfires, so I started cleaning the primer pocket every two shots. Sounds crazy but I hated the misfires. I cleaned the barrel every five shots or so. I was using cci 209 primers

 

Brent

[Umpqua]

Oregon, where I live, has similarly restrictive muzzleloader regulations, so I have been refining my set-up since the early 1980's. Below is my current set-up for states that allow 209 primers (like Colorado):

 

Rifle:

 

1) Knight DISC Extreme 50 caliber. Best price is often from Sportsman's Warehouse.

2) Williams FP Legend Peep Sight

3) XS Sights Front Base 12-2035A-039-1 (from manufacturer)

4) XS Sight Stripe Front Post: 11-2006A-450-2 (from manufacturer)

5) I change out the factory ram rod with a solid aluminum ram rod (grimaced on eBay) and a Spin Jag (eBay).

 

With the above sight, I aim off of the top of the front post, that way you have a well defined aiming point (the top of the white stripe). It does not cover up the aiming point like a bead or fiber optic does. A bead or fiber optic can cover up around 6" of the target at 100 yards. This sight is very forgiving in various lighting conditions, where a fiber optic can sometimes be a bit finicky.

 

Load:

 

1) 85 grains (volume) of Blackhorn 209 powder. Best powder by far!! This load is quite efficient in converting this powder to bullet energy. If you go much over 90 grains of powder, the bullet will "strip" from the rifling and the accuracy will tank.

2) Two 0.065" thick vegetable fiber wads. Fiber wads prevents the flame from scorching the lead conical.

3) 460 grain No Excuses bullet (these are 50 caliber lead conicals, just under 1" long, so legal in states like Oregon). These are not simply cast bullets, but rather are die sized to 0.503" and prelubed for easy and consistent loading. They are available on the internet from No-Excuses. The best lead conical I have found and they are reasonably priced too ($25 for 50 bullets + shipping).

4) Fiocchi 209 primer (616). These have a soft "pressure" at ignition which ignites Blackthorn 209 well rather than driving the bullet off of the powder, which can result in poor accuracy.

 

Most muzzleloader barrels today are designed for sabots, rather than full bore sized bullets. The Green Mountain barrels on Knight rifles are one of the few barrels that consistently shoot lead conicals extremely well. You want a long heavy conical (400+ grains) in these fast twist "sabot" barrels (1:28) to properly stabilize the bullet and get accurate flight. The long bullets also retain energy far better for those longer shots.

 

I have two rifles with the above set-up. My first one shoots 2.5" groups at 100 yards. The second one shot an 0.8" group at 100 yards the last time out (open sights). I have a third rifle which is still new in the box. I also keep about 500 of the No Excuses bullets on hand. As you can tell I'm pretty sold on this load and set-up. :-)

 

Shoot one shot before hunting so that you are hunting on a fouled barrel for consistent results.

 

Clean the gun with normal rifle cleaning products like Hoppe's 9 solvent with this powder.

 

I burned 22 points in Colorado for Unit 61 this year and killed my bull with this load. The bullet entered the shoulder and exited just ahead of the rear ham on a quartering towards me shot.

 

With a scope and saboted bullets, this would also be a great rifle for Arizona or New Mexico.

 

With a "Western Conversion Kit" you can shoot #11 caps or musket caps for the most restrictive western states like Oregon.

 

I feel the Knight DISC Extreme is the likely best multi-state muzzleloader that is readily available. I've gone through probably a dozen muzzleloaders and thousands of dollars in components over the years to arrive at this set-up.

[yotebuster]

Oregon, where I live, has similarly restrictive muzzleloader regulations, so I have been refining my set-up since the early 1980's. Below is my current set-up for states that allow 209 primers (like Colorado):

 

Rifle:

 

1) Knight DISC Extreme 50 caliber. Best price is often from Sportsman's Warehouse.

2) Williams FP Legend Peep Sight

3) XS Sights Front Base 12-2035A-039-1 (from manufacturer)

4) XS Sight Stripe Front Post: 11-2006A-450-2 (from manufacturer)

5) I change out the factory ram rod with a solid aluminum ram rod (grimaced on eBay) and a Spin Jag (eBay).

 

With the above sight, I aim off of the top of the front post, that way you have a well defined aiming point (the top of the white stripe). It does not cover up the aiming point like a bead or fiber optic does. A bead or fiber optic can cover up around 6" of the target at 100 yards. This sight is very forgiving in various lighting conditions, where a fiber optic can sometimes be a bit finicky.

 

Load:

 

1) 85 grains (volume) of Blackhorn 209 powder. Best powder by far!! This load is quite efficient in converting this powder to bullet energy. If you go much over 90 grains of powder, the bullet will "strip" from the rifling and the accuracy will tank.

2) Two 0.065" thick vegetable fiber wads. Fiber wads prevents the flame from scorching the lead conical.

3) 460 grain No Excuses bullet (these are 50 caliber lead conicals, just under 1" long, so legal in states like Oregon). These are not simply cast bullets, but rather are die sized to 0.503" and prelubed for easy and consistent loading. They are available on the internet from No-Excuses. The best lead conical I have found and they are reasonably priced too ($25 for 50 bullets + shipping).

4) Fiocchi 209 primer (616). These have a soft "pressure" at ignition which ignites Blackthorn 209 well rather than driving the bullet off of the powder, which can result in poor accuracy.

 

Most muzzleloader barrels today are designed for sabots, rather than full bore sized bullets. The Green Mountain barrels on Knight rifles are one of the few barrels that consistently shoot lead conicals extremely well. You want a long heavy conical (400+ grains) in these fast twist "sabot" barrels (1:28) to properly stabilize the bullet and get accurate flight. The long bullets also retain energy far better for those longer shots.

 

I have two rifles with the above set-up. My first one shoots 2.5" groups at 100 yards. The second one shot an 0.8" group at 100 yards the last time out (open sights). I have a third rifle which is still new in the box. I also keep about 500 of the No Excuses bullets on hand. As you can tell I'm pretty sold on this load and set-up. :-)

 

Shoot one shot before hunting so that you are hunting on a fouled barrel for consistent results.

 

Clean the gun with normal rifle cleaning products like Hoppe's 9 solvent with this powder.

 

I burned 22 points in Colorado for Unit 61 this year and killed my bull with this load. The bullet entered the shoulder and exited just ahead of the rear ham on a quartering towards me shot.

 

With a scope and saboted bullets, this would also be a great rifle for Arizona or New Mexico.

 

With a "Western Conversion Kit" you can shoot #11 caps or musket caps for the most restrictive western states like Oregon.

 

I feel the Knight DISC Extreme is the likely best multi-state muzzleloader that is readily available. I've gone through probably a dozen muzzleloaders and thousands of dollars in components over the years to arrive at this set-up.

 

Umpqua, it doesn't sound like you have any experience or a clue what you're talking about!!! J/K!! That was an extremely good write up that covers all the important things about muzzleloading in restricted states! How about a pic of your unit 61 bull?!? My bro is sitting on 22 pts and I have 16. I think I'm gonna grab my ankles and go to unit 40 with an outfitter this year, my points are worthless anywhere else. Wish I could trade them off for AZ or UT points!!

[azshtr]

That's awesome Colorado has rules like that. That's how muzzleloader hunts should be! It's a "primitive" weapon so why should these muzzleloader guys be able to shoot animals out past 300 yards with them? And have scopes and basically have a single shot rifle because you can reload the things in about 2 seconds now. Every state needs to adopt those rules or just consider these muzzleloader hunts as rifle hunts because that's what it's turning into. Sorry for the rant just glad one state has it right.

The same argument could be made for archery. It is a "primitive" weapon. In the past the distances were in the 20-40 yard range. Now 100+ is not unheard of. I can group 60 yards with arrows almost touching. My sight dials out to 100+ yards. Todays bows are now where muzzleloader was.

[Umpqua]

 

Oregon, where I live, has similarly restrictive muzzleloader regulations, so I have been refining my set-up since the early 1980's. Below is my current set-up for states that allow 209 primers (like Colorado):

 

Rifle:

 

1) Knight DISC Extreme 50 caliber. Best price is often from Sportsman's Warehouse.

2) Williams FP Legend Peep Sight

3) XS Sights Front Base 12-2035A-039-1 (from manufacturer)

4) XS Sight Stripe Front Post: 11-2006A-450-2 (from manufacturer)

5) I change out the factory ram rod with a solid aluminum ram rod (grimaced on eBay) and a Spin Jag (eBay).

 

With the above sight, I aim off of the top of the front post, that way you have a well defined aiming point (the top of the white stripe). It does not cover up the aiming point like a bead or fiber optic does. A bead or fiber optic can cover up around 6" of the target at 100 yards. This sight is very forgiving in various lighting conditions, where a fiber optic can sometimes be a bit finicky.

 

Load:

 

1) 85 grains (volume) of Blackhorn 209 powder. Best powder by far!! This load is quite efficient in converting this powder to bullet energy. If you go much over 90 grains of powder, the bullet will "strip" from the rifling and the accuracy will tank.

2) Two 0.065" thick vegetable fiber wads. Fiber wads prevents the flame from scorching the lead conical.

3) 460 grain No Excuses bullet (these are 50 caliber lead conicals, just under 1" long, so legal in states like Oregon). These are not simply cast bullets, but rather are die sized to 0.503" and prelubed for easy and consistent loading. They are available on the internet from No-Excuses. The best lead conical I have found and they are reasonably priced too ($25 for 50 bullets + shipping).

4) Fiocchi 209 primer (616). These have a soft "pressure" at ignition which ignites Blackthorn 209 well rather than driving the bullet off of the powder, which can result in poor accuracy.

 

Most muzzleloader barrels today are designed for sabots, rather than full bore sized bullets. The Green Mountain barrels on Knight rifles are one of the few barrels that consistently shoot lead conicals extremely well. You want a long heavy conical (400+ grains) in these fast twist "sabot" barrels (1:28) to properly stabilize the bullet and get accurate flight. The long bullets also retain energy far better for those longer shots.

 

I have two rifles with the above set-up. My first one shoots 2.5" groups at 100 yards. The second one shot an 0.8" group at 100 yards the last time out (open sights). I have a third rifle which is still new in the box. I also keep about 500 of the No Excuses bullets on hand. As you can tell I'm pretty sold on this load and set-up. :-)

 

Shoot one shot before hunting so that you are hunting on a fouled barrel for consistent results.

 

Clean the gun with normal rifle cleaning products like Hoppe's 9 solvent with this powder.

 

I burned 22 points in Colorado for Unit 61 this year and killed my bull with this load. The bullet entered the shoulder and exited just ahead of the rear ham on a quartering towards me shot.

 

With a scope and saboted bullets, this would also be a great rifle for Arizona or New Mexico.

 

With a "Western Conversion Kit" you can shoot #11 caps or musket caps for the most restrictive western states like Oregon.

 

I feel the Knight DISC Extreme is the likely best multi-state muzzleloader that is readily available. I've gone through probably a dozen muzzleloaders and thousands of dollars in components over the years to arrive at this set-up.

 

Umpqua, it doesn't sound like you have any experience or a clue what you're talking about!!! J/K!! That was an extremely good write up that covers all the important things about muzzleloading in restricted states! How about a pic of your unit 61 bull?!? My bro is sitting on 22 pts and I have 16. I think I'm gonna grab my ankles and go to unit 40 with an outfitter this year, my points are worthless anywhere else. Wish I could trade them off for AZ or UT points!!

 

Yotebuster...that's funny!

 

I think your brother would love Unit 61. It's on the upswing. The quality of the bulls has definitely been getting better the past 2-3 years. We saw 60 bulls and had 16 in shooting range. Had a 350-360 class at 20 yards and the primer had fallen out of my muzzy on the mornings hunt (I still make amateur mistakes!!). Killed a nice bull the next morning. I had 22 points last year and realized there were too many in my point pool and ahead of me to catch the NW corner in the foreseeable future. I have given the pic to Huntin Fool, so I can't make it public.

 

If you can go the outfitter route, Unit 40 is a killer unit.

 

Speaking of AZ points, I had planned to burn my 16 Arizona elk points this fall, but I messed up my shoulder on my CO hunt and can barely get my wife's 35 pound bow back. I am gonna cry I think...ha ha. Now I'm trying to figure out a firearm hunt I might have a shot at drawing.

[pwrguy]

Finally, I get to hunt Colorado for the first time (Unit 49). Wearing hunter orange is going to be a new experience for me. I have not had too much luck with the TC encore pro hunter yet. Anyone out there had any luck with it shooting full diameter bullets? I have seen some negative stuff posted about this rifle because of the QLA and also the twist rate. I have shot maxi balls, no excuses 460, 350 FPB. Admittedly I have not shot enough to give up yet, but initial results have been pretty dismal. I have read in several posts about poor terminal performance of powerbelts on elk so I would like to avoid if possible. Any thoughts/comments

[murfys69law]

Don't own a muzzle loader but I did want to say about the comment on shooting the first bull you see. I have hunted Colo. since 85 and thats total bull crap about not having good bulls there. Glass and be patient. There are some great elk there it just takes time and finding them. Good luck.

[DesertBull]

There are some companies making replacement ML'er barrels for the T/C

 

http://www.bullberry.com/black-powder-barrel-details.html

 

I have also heard of guys taking their barrels to a Smith and having them cut off the CLA and recrown the barrel.

 

 

 

I had good luck with Precision Rifle Bullets in my Knight. They also make CO legal conicals.

 

https://www.prbullet.com/ul50.htm

[yotebuster]

Don't own a muzzle loader but I did want to say about the comment on shooting the first bull you see. I have hunted Colo. since 85 and thats total bull crap about not having good bulls there. Glass and be patient. There are some great elk there it just takes time and finding them. Good luck.

Show us some pics if these big colorado bulls you've been killing murph.

[Red Sparky]

I definitely would not cut off the QLA. I have it on my T/C and the whole point is to start the projectile square with the rifling in the barrel. It is oversized and your bullet should drop down about 1/2" and be square to the rifling. I mainly shoot sabots and a scope here in NM but have tried a few full size bullets. I started ML hunting casting my own Maxi-ball bullets with pure lead. That was with a 1:48 twist St. Louis Hawken by CVA.

 

I would try a few things first. First is to make sure you use consistent pressure with the ramrod when seating bullets. Using masking tape, or color coded electricians tape, pour a powder charge down the barrel and measure it on the ramrod. Then add the length of the bullet so you should have an idea of where the ramrod is when fully seated. Don't forget the ramrod will stick farther out of the barrel with the bullet so make sure you mark the correct side. It should seat the same each time. Also with my T/C it shoots better with a fouled barrel. The first shot will be 4" off of where my groups are.

 

The other thing is to go to the BP substitute that you are using for min. and max. loads. I only load by volume rather than weight so start out at min. and work up by 10 grains at a time. I admit I shoot Pyrodex P out of my .50 but I have had these loads for 20 years and figure if it ain't broke don't fix it. Once again I load VOLUME not weight. Once you find your most accurate load play with the amount of powder by five grains. If using BH 209 then it might be 2 grains weight not volume but I am not sure. The loads I am using are not legal in Co. but with 250 Hornady SST or T/C ShockWaves I shoot <1" groups at 100 yards

 

I have found my most consistent loads below maximum. I have never shot a 150 grain volume weight of powder. I have the 1:28 twist barrel in my T/C and I think the same in my daughters CVA. If you get the lead bullets moving too fast it will strip past the rifling and you lose accuracy. To get my daughter shooting I was using round balls with about 40 grains of powder and that twist rate is not for round balls but I had her shooting 4" groups at 100 yards. Then we moved to sabots and she was shooting 1" groups at 100 yards.

 

Above all else if you are going to cut the QLA off the barrel and have it re-crowned contact me and I will buy it from you and buy you a different ML. I need to buy my younger daughter a ML anyhow.

[pwrguy]

Red, thanks for the detailed information. For the most part I am doing everything you say except for the fouled barrel part. What has worked for you. I have been swabbing the barrel with one moist and then one dry patch prior to the next shot. How many shots are you taking between cleanings. I have noticed the first shot on a totally clean barrel is way off the rest of the shots. Shooting anything that is a sabot is not an option for my upcoming hunt so I haven't even played around with them yet. I have read online that 1:28 twist of the T/C is not optimum for full diameter large .50 Cal projectiles, if not, what is and does anyone make one for this gun?

 

As far as modifying my barrel, I would buy another barrel before cutting off the QLA as I hope to use the rifle on future hunts where I am allowed to use sabots and a scope. All my shooting so far has been between 75 and 90 grains of Blackhorn 209. I figure if I can't do any better than 5 inch groups at 25 yards that I am still doing something wrong and there is no point in trying to push the bullet faster. Thanks all for your posts.

[Red Sparky]

I am shooting about 10 rounds before I clean. I have a T/C ThunderHawk I bought new in 1997 when I replaced the CVA side lock. Scopes were made legal here so I put a cheap Tasco 4X Pronghorn on it and it has not changed zero yet. The only firearm I can shoot accurately with open sights are my handguns at handgun distances. It is an inline that still uses #11 caps rather than 209 primers. I only use T/C #13 and bore butter to clean. I can call my first shot about every time from a clean barrel, 6" high and 6" to the right, then it settles down. Shooting the maxi balls I cast through the 1:28 twist I have to load 70 volume grains of Pyrodex RS and the groups open up to about 3" at 100 yards. Normally for sabots I use Pyrodex P, you have to research it but P can be used up to a .50 muzzle loader.

 

I know everybody says use BH 209 but I would try Pyrodex RS with a full bore bullet. It is dirtier to shoot but cheaper to try than a new barrel. All the guys I know that shoot full bore bullets still use it or real black powder if they can find it but use BH 209 for sabots. Try to find a pure lead bullet that has a hollow base as the expanding gases flare out the base to help engage the rifling and create a gas seal. I have heard great things about the T/C maxi hunters but have not tried them myself. I always apply more bore butter to a full bore bullet even if they come pre-lubed. You can even try a felt wad between the powder and bullet.

 

I was sent Power Belts to evaluate once. I tried them but never used them for hunting. The reason is I was shooting 240 grain XTP's for my deer loads and the Power Belts grouped great but 4" low and 6" to the left of where the XTP's were sighted in for. In both the 1:48 and 1:28 twist rifles so I can't explain that one.

 

If you do replace the barrel try to get a 1:48 twist as my side lock had no problem shooting maxi balls with about 100 grains volume of Pyrodex RS. It also shot 240 grn XTP's well in sabots. The only reason I don't use the side lock for hunting anymore is with my eyesight. I am extremely near sighted, a scope is more ethical for me to place a good shot. I have killed deer with it but passed up more shots than taken due to the fact I was uncomfortable with the open sights and didn't want to injure an animal and not recover it. Just my limitations, 4" groups at 100 yards open sights from a sandbag bench rest, and not a reflection on anybody else's hunting abilities.

[DesertBull]

The guys cutting off their CLA are claiming it is not cut square to the bore so it's doing exact opposite of what it is designed for.

 

You can buy new factory TC barrels from Midway. Maybe you just have a dud barrel because a 5 inch group at 25 yards sounds like more than just a bullet / powder problem.

[pwrguy]

Thanks again for your responses, I definitely have some things to ponder and try. I don't have enough shots down the barrel to come to many conclusions yet, so I appreciate all input.

[murfys69law]

 

Don't own a muzzle loader but I did want to say about the comment on shooting the first bull you see. I have hunted Colo. since 85 and thats total bull crap about not having good bulls there. Glass and be patient. There are some great elk there it just takes time and finding them. Good luck.

Show us some pics if these big colorado bulls you've been killing murph.

 

Why don't you show us pics of your little rag horns you're so happy to shoot.