General Questions #3..Hunting Techinques...

[macknnc]

Okay as I said way back in my first post here...some time back..I grew up reading Jack O' Connor....and he writes that he prowled the desert, poking into draws and so on...until he spooked a deer.

 

But I reading in Mr. Adams book (and I bet Mr. Adams would prefer I didn't call him 'Mr. Adams') he mentions glassing, bipods, (bipods? what happened to Jack's dream of the 8 lb rifle being perfect?) and the implication (which maybe I am misunderstanding) is long range shots, as opposed to a careful stalk...one post I made earlier back when I first joined..someone refered to a 300 yard shot at a Coues as a 'chip shot'...

 

But Scott Adams, Duwane Adam's cousin, and a member here, with whom I have exchanged a couple of PMs over the past couple of days, tells me he used an inline muzzleloader (admittedly a curse word to me) to take a Coues at 50 yards..I explained my views to him and he responsed that it sounded to him as if I were a 'traditionalist' and yes, gulity as charged.

 

when I black powder hunt I use a flintlock...sometimes rifle but just as often a smoothbore...when I bowhunt I use an honest-to-God yew longbow..and yep...the fact that 95% of my hunting has been in the East has marked me a bit...here of course, unless 'ridge running' or hunting power line right of ways, typical ranges are 50 yards..or less..in Eastern NC, closer to the coast, deer are pushed with dogs and we use shotguns and buck shot and take 'em at 50 feet...

 

And there is a black powder and archery fourm here, so you westerners also do this now and then...I ain't fussing at anybody...you know..follow the customs of the area...but though I love my .270 (even in the woods) are 300 yard shots really necessary? I remember some months ago, someone commented he used a .45-70 lever action...this is certainly not a 300 yard outfit...I'm all for glassing the area carefully...and basically favor the GPS units, though not as a substiute for the traditional map and compass... but surely you can, with a little effort, typically get closer than 300 yards to a Coues. Can't you?

[elkhunter]

No it's not always possible, hills here are farther than 300 yards apart

[naturegirl]

You can get as close as you want to get. it's the personal challenge of the hunter. 300 yards seems to be a typical shot here in most of Arizona's terrain.

[PatrickJr]

what you must take into consideration is if you are willing to accept it if you spook that deer, I would personally rather take the long shot than try to get closer and spook him, mostly because I am confident that I can make those shots. When you choose to take the long shot(what I mean is 300-700 yards) you are increasing your chances of killing that deer by a lot, just for the simple fact that todays technology is the way it is. yes, with long range shooting you don't have that "experience" with the animal but you still have a good amount of satisfaction. You should consider getting that 270 out to the range and seeing how far you can shoot accurately on a consistent basis. I also prefer long range shooting because it is rare for me to see a good deer, and when I see one, I don't want to mess around....... just my .02

 

 

ps. I give anyone props for going after anything with a long bow (even though I shoot recurves)

[Antmo23]

I've taken 5 bucks in my time, only one has been over 300 (343). Most have been anywhere between 100-150. My closest was 81 yards. So while some shots can be out there, I've lucked out and been able to get close.

[FancyRedneck]

I believe its in how you prefer to hunt. I have 3 that I haven't shot over 220 and one inside 50 yards . Like Patrick Jr said if you are willing to risk losing that animal if you go after it thats your choice, I actually prefer the challenge of getting close. I think it depends on the wind ,terrain and a few being patient thats a big thing . My avatar was this years buck that I spotted at over 500. Fortunately I had everything in my favor and got to within 200. Year before that I killed a bigger buck spotted at over 800 and stalked to within 180 in just 15 min. It was wide open but I took the chance and it paid off.

[kwp]

One thing many eastern hunters don't realize is how difficult it is to be quiet in our desert mountains. Nothing is soft, everything crunches. Trying to get closer will likely result in many more blown stalks than successful ones.

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

Well, Mac.... I think I saw you live back east? We certainly have different landscapes from East to West in this huge country and therefore different hunting strategies. I personally have taken Coues deer at 12 yds and at 420 yds... and been involved in the taking of several bucks over 5-600 yds here in AZ. There are many reasons...and I will try to share a few:

 

First let me say that my biggest Coues was taken at 12 yds and grossed just over 109" P&Y.

 

In Coues deer hunting you have choices... lots of choices: in taking device, equipment, method, and habitat. There is something for EVERYONE... and lots of opportunity!! If you just want to hunt coues and don't really care about "inches" or Age Class then your options are almost limitless. However for some others (I fall in this group) the desire to consistently find and harvest some of the Largest Coues deer bucks that public land can offer is an addiction... and therefore we use every possible advantage we can to not only find, but also harvest these "Ghosts"... I have been blessed to aid in the "ground Checking" of more than my fair share of the Giant Public Land Coues Deer (as a guide, friend, or navigator... always the Bridesmaid and never the Bride.... and someday it will be my turn to be the tag holder with my face next to a Giant). Just last year I held a mid 140+, a low 130+, and 117+... all of them were in my glasses when they hit the dirt! What a rush!! All were taken at yardages between 350 and 600 yds and you were not gunna close the distance without wings. We were not hunting these bucks by chance... we were hunting there because we knew what we were looking for and you have to kill the Monsters where you find them. I have been hunting one particular buck with a bow since 2010 and still have not seen him on the hoof, my wife missed him at 25 yds in 2012 (the only time he has been seen)... and this year if he still lives (Pray that my TC's show me he is) I will try to draw an early gun tag and hunt only him... and if I do draw I will have to hunt him at long range with a gun because I there is no getting close and I have yet to see him while bow hunting. So I will modify my plan of attack to try and take this (now) Old buck before the lions or winter gets him.

It is truly about choice, and personal preference... I love to win and I love chasing these wickedly crafty deer... but if you plan to win consistently on big deer you have to broaden your horizons and play the whole field not just one position (baseball metaphor).

 

Good Hunting.

[GJMauro12]

Sometimes there is just no getting closer. Last year I glassed up a buck at 700 yards but right now I am only comfortable out to 500. I was by myself and I was below the deer. He was bedded in a maze of manzanita and above me with no closer advantage point to see him. I was by myself and decided to see what happened if I walked up there. Well after bush whacking thru manzanita for at least an hour I had no clue where that deer was and knew even if I was close he's probably been listening to me force my way up there if he hasn't vacated the area already.

 

Next year I will know my rifle better.

 

Here's a pic of the buck from the 700 yards. Wasn't what I was after but it was getting late in the hunt and I hadn't seen much. I enhanced the color a little bit to make him stand out better.

[KeithV]

mac these guys have givin awesome advice. I started actually deer hunting in 1980 when I was 12, you could hunt coues or muleys at the same time. or the december hunt which you had a number of units to hunt in. Back then we did the Jack Oconnor thing but with more glassing. They then changed to muley only and coues only hunts and cut the number of rut hunt tags to 50 thats why Duane was saying rut hunts are more difficult to draw for. Now there are more people putting in because coues deer have gained so much popularity and they also added more tags but more hunters. For years my Dad and I hunted with 270s with a fixed 4 power leupold but also added 15x56 binoculars on a tripod. and hunted that way for a number of years sometimes getting lucky. i shot my best coues to date at probabaly 20 feet a 95 inch deer. In the early 2000s my Dad and I got into some really big bucks and numerous and i mean numerous failed stocks on those bruisers left us wanting. well to make a long story short my Father passed in 2006 and my good friend who hunts with scott adams got me going on better optics for my rifle 6to18 power target turrets for a longer shot and lots of range time . The reason you will see so much about the high power scopes is because of the shadows where the bucks hide. i wont get into the long shot versus a certain range limit but to increase your odds three hundred is pretty much the standard if not a little further at that range that buck has been watching you for a while. Like Gino said these are some big giant canyons and when you find them 500 to a thousand yards away , you drop off to try and sneak closer you wont see him again. Unless its more open country these are the toughest sneakiest wily Deer you will ever hunt and when you start finding the larger deer your gonna be hooked because you will get beat time and time again no matter what equipment you have. You have hunted them once a long time ago and it still hasnt left you haha. the majority of guys on here will tell you good optics and patience and persistance will do it. a lot rides on luck but you know that allready. I would tell you more about the terrain but you been here once. But i can tell you i had to adapt and change a little from mine and my Dads style he is probabaly mad because i put a variable scope on the rifle he built me. Every year i hunt these deer i learn something new or get tricked another way. Its hunting i love these little Arizona deer thy get under your skin. And i promise Scott knows his stuff and the country he hunts in he will not steer you wrong. This site has a ton of info and a lot of us have learned over the years different techniques to be succsessful there are some guys that are really consistant year to year, I however am not . But I keep trying. there is a bunch of stuff to read and watch but your best bet is to just hunt them and learn what works best for you.

[rcdinaz]

A few comments on the differences of eastern hunting. I spent a lot of time in NC and Georgia and have hunted in Indy and Minn. The guys in Indy laughed at my bino's and asked what I planned on doing with them. The family and friends we have had here from the east are always amazed at how different the terrain is. One of them swore after his first outing that God must have taken 90% of the rocks he made and placed them in AZ just for entertainment. He would literally comment on the size of the terrain and how rough it was every hour for 4 days.

 

The hunting, even the walking and visibility is completely different. Many, many times there is absolutely no getting closer and if you did there would be no shot. The desert plant life tends to be very thick and low to the ground, you literally cant see things that are 50 yards away. We have played hide and seek with a number of deer and coues seem to be very good at hiding and not moving. If you do have time to scout or have a guide then it will be much different because then you can at least attempt a plan that will get you close.

[macknnc]

Well rcdinaz, I can sympathize. Even here in the east, I'd almost rather forget my rifle than my binocs...with them I've spotted deer that they did not know were even there..turkeys

 

and honest to God guys, I am not saying those long shots are wrong...not by any means. And yes I am fully aware that my decades of eastern hunting have 'marked' me as has my reading and rereading of Jack O'Connor..I mean geez..the man died 36 years ago and he left Arizona and Coues hunting 65 years ago. (Two years before I was even born!)

 

So yes my thoughts are dated and yes quite possibly out of step with the current methods,

 

But I am a traditionalist, a 'classicist' (if that is even a word) and a proud member of the Old Fogey Society...Progress is always change but is change always progress? Not hardly.

 

So yes, I am perfectly willing to admit that 300 yard (or greater) are needed for Coues...(My one other western hunt was for Pronghorns in WY, and I know dang well that 300 yards are the norm there..) but I do question that it is always the way it has to happen, and that you simply can not get closer.. To me, 99% of hunting is making sure you explore the option of getting closer...there are a lot of pluses there..you will shoot better at shorter range..your bullet will hit harder..still carrying more of its velocity..

 

So of course you have take 300 yard plus shots now and then...Shoot I've taken 200 yds shots here in East and according to the books, that never happens...and you guys are right...if I ever get another chance at Coues, my .270 and I will spend time at the range and do a lot of work out there at the longer ranges...I will be prepared for 300 yards (and more) ranges...but I will spend an equal amount of time seeing I can spot them closer...or get closer...

[ready2hunt]

I have been blessed to harvest a decent number of coues bucks and all of them have been under 50 yards. My very first buck was at 10 yards.....we scared eachother coming around a big boulder.

 

However, all these bucks have been in the same area as I knew where to be and their food/bedding sources and it's so thick that long shots are simply not feasible.

 

Even with my blind/dumb luck i would say that if you hunt coues your gonna take long shots BUT it also depends on where you hunt. Of course you can get close....hence there are great hunters that harvest them with bows. (I cannot put myself in that category yet)

 

 

+1000 to "sometimes you just cant get closer"

[mattys281]

Ive never killed one with a rifle, but I've managed to take four deer with my bow. Closest was 30 yards and longest was 78 yards. Ive been less than 10 feet away from deer on the hoof and seen others I couldn't get closer than 200 yards to if my life depended on it. I think with rifle hunting its the same as archery in regard to long shots: on the good days you dont need to make one, but its nice to be able to do it if you decide to.