#16 & 17 Catalina Big Horns???

[gotcoues]

I am sad to report that I have unconfirmed information that once again collars are reporting a mortality signal and it may be from the last viable breeding ram as well.

 

I wanted to move my post from the other thread because it seems the bashing starts all over again with the new deaths are made public.

 

Here is my post from the other sheep thread that I posted earlier out of frustration of reading a lot post from other members of the forum.

 

 

 

 

 

I know we all have "our issues" with game and fish but I'm pretty surprised we as hunters have played right into the anti's arms on this sheep deal.

 

Did the sheep society and G & F know the lions were dense in the Catalina's, yes they did. Unfortunately, apparently they have less control over this operation than the other major players in this "unholy alliance" to get the sheep reintroduced into the Catalina's.

 

The original proposal was to go in and remove lions before hand which was strongly opposed and the absolute best deal they could strike was attempt to remove "offending lions" only to appease people who have no clue how to manage wildlife. The very same pro wolf crowd already hurting our wildlife with their massive wolf push! Only two lions were tracked and killed by houndsman and one by G & F. Others were tracked unsuccessfully or the houndsman had to pull of due to "rules of engagement".

 

I believe the real question we as the hunting community should be asking is why the heck is this reintroduction is being run by ANYONE else other than the sheep society and G & F!

 

This project is failing because of the ridiculous rules put in by be the other groups who shouldn't have been at the table in the first place!!!

 

There is a commission meeting in Oro Valley and the anti's will be in full force no doubt! I'm finding a hard time believing we as hunters and so called conservationists have a problem with decreasing the lion population in a given area to relieve predation on sheep and/or other wildlife. Isn't that a part of wildlife management?

 

I believe we have played the part of the fool on this one and we have given huge points to the other side. Imagine if failure was part of their plan to begin with. Do you really think the anti's care about sheep or wildlife in general the way you and I do. I would compare that notion to PETA and the % of killing vs. adopting they do in their very only shelters. They are seated at the discussion/slash rule making for agenda reasons IMO. Failure and bad publicity helps feed their narrative for more California like legislation to be sent down the pipe which could be why they want EVERY lion to be head line news and wanted it from the get go.

 

I really think we as a community should be sticking together on this issue no different than baiting, running hounds, trapping or any other hunting related issue. These idiots are pushing false narratives and skewing facts like nobody's business.

 

I personally would rather buy into the narrative that culling lions in areas densely populated with lions can be a benefit for all wildlife including the lions themselves. I'm all for sheep living and doing well in the great state of AZ and I know the chances to ever get to hunt one are slim to none. Although the anti's love to make people believe they only reason we hunters would like to see them in the Catalina's is so we can kill them which is absurd and unfortunately here we sit fighting among ourselves rather than preaching the gospel of wildlife conservation to the same crowds the antis preach loud and clear there deranged way of thinking and skewed facts.

[520HUNT]

I wouldn't blame the hunters who post their concerns over a department that has gone astray. I would blame AZGFD for going to bed with the environmentalists! This current department has singly handly destroyed the quality of hunting in Arizona, and ruined the reputation of the department and of hunters. It's a sad day for the real conservationists in Arizona, the average hunter.

[Adicted]

wtf.

[PatrickJr]

wow, this just keeps getting worse! there truly isn't a light at the end of the tunnel, oh that's right, because the tunnel is just that full of lions!!!

[gotcoues]

I'm not blaming us as hunters, but your point is well taken if it feels like I implied it. I'm not a fan of G & F for the record, I was just really frustrated with this ordeal playing right into the hands of people who are against us.

 

We can all assume the Sheep Society has the Sheeps best interest at heart and I have faith they got the best deal they could. There are so many fine details that are left untold due to the politics of the situation. I would love for nothing more than some top dogs from the sheep society to come on here or evening news for that matter and tell us "how they really feel" but are required to hold their tongues in the public arena do to the upside down politics of this situation.

 

I realize every single sheep is valuable, and it pains us all to loose these treasures. I can imagine a viable, sustainable herd in the Catalina's and would assume if that could/would happen that these sheep would have died for a greater cause.

 

I would have thought the general public would realize maybe we really do have a "lion problem" and would be more open to the sometimes harsh reality of wildlife management.

 

A bit off topic, but can we imagine a state where predator hunting is banned. Where lions, wolves, bears, coyotes and bobcats were aloud to go unchecked in a protected class. How many years would it take to notice the deer, elk, antelope and other big game are just flat out disappearing....

[bonecollector777]

I feel like somehow you are taking blame off of azgfd and trying to put it in the hunters somehow? Even the dumbest of us on here realize this was a horrible idea from the beginning. How did AZGFD not know it was as well? We would have been just fine without sheep in the Catalinas. We would have 31 sheep in other areas doing just fine. Seems as if azgfd did this because of pressure from environmentalist groups because even with as much as I hate them I don't think they are THAT dumb to just blindly throw in valuable sheep to feed the lions. But then again they are pretty stupid so who knows the reasons behind it. Why not get the sheep out and cut their losses before they lose ALL credibility with most of the hunters in az?

[gotcoues]

I doubt it is G & F who came to the table refusing to cull out lions, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm not sure I blamed anyone for anything. Just frustrated that we, as a community are using every death to pile on. I didn't say the reintroduction was a great idea either. Perhaps I tried to put my concerns down and I didn't do as well as I hoped. It is no secret that a lot of us issues with the department.

 

Call it naive or stupid, whatever you choose. Sheep have been reintroduced successfully in other places and I'm sure it included lion removal to do so and my assumptions are this project could have/ could still be successful. I heard several theories on why the sheep died out, we are all sure on why the project is failing at an alarming rate and I wish we could put the politics aside and cull lions to see the project through as a success story. Areas with sheep are being managed aggressively to keep lions in check, the Catalina's should be no different.

[bonecollector777]

I agree, we agree that lions should be culled and managed. Someone obviously doesn't agree but yet they still throw the sheep to the lions. If they were attempting to kill the Lions or if they had tried killing the lions before there wouldn't be this problem. Who is even trying to come up with other theories of why they are dying? It's pretty clear why isn't it?

[gotcoues]

The previous sheep herd*

[muleskinner]

Why should there be sheep in the Catalina's at all?

[johnnie blaze]

Why should there be sheep in the Catalina's at all?

because they've always been there before 1990's

[johnnie blaze]

http://media.jrn.com/documents/Santa+Catalina+Mountain+Lion+Management+Plan.pdf

[bonecollector777]

We used to have camels in AZ too way before 1990, should we reintroduce them?

I read through the whole proposal and all it sounded like to me was tthen writing something up to make liberals and environmentalists happy. Between waiting to see which lions kill the sheep first and then trying to kill it and the thing about how they will handle a jaguar if caught Sounds Like A Bunch bunch of BS to keep other lion loving groups happy. And I think we already know how well the department does handling those Jaguars once they catch them. They do a great job! At killing them. .

[ThomC]

It is also sad to read the posts from supposed hunters that are full of maybes, I think, probably, guesses and misinformation, Add in the grammatical and spelling errors and it makes all of us look stupid. I wish that Amanda would put automatic spell and grammer check on this site.

 

PS I forgot the 20/20 hindsighters.

[johnnie blaze]

It is also sad to read the posts from supposed hunters that are full of maybes, I think, probably, guesses and misinformation, Add in the grammatical and spelling errors and it makes all of us look stupid. I wish that Amanda would put automatic spell and grammer check on this site.

 

PS I forgot the 20/20 hindsighters.

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