CouesWhitetail Report post Posted March 7, 2014 bonecollector777....you asked for examples of habitat improvements....there are numerous areas that have been improved due to habitat projects which many sportsmen, including many CouesWhitetail members have worked on....just the other day I was talking to Ben Brochu who has been spearheading a plan of improving habitat primarily for mule deer in unit 37B. This plan included putting water sources in good habitat that didn't have any reliable water. I asked Ben if he is seeing results from the last many years of work and he said this year they counted more mule deer than ever in their helicopter surveys. And although the current sheep reintro in the Catalinas is not going well, there have been many successful sheep translocations which have resulted in huntable populations. How about the Gould's turkey reintroductions which have resulted in huntable populations? These are just a few off the top of my head. AGFD and wildlife conservation groups are improving habitat and wildlife populations in the state. That doesn't mean all is perfect and that there isn't a lot of work to do. But here is a question for you.....how does your ranting on this forum help wildlife populations or habitat in this state? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Redman Report post Posted March 7, 2014 HA HA its almost comical how a young man can get some many adults riled up....Bone777 not saying your not an adult as I know you are... you just have so much to learn in life as we all do..... which can only be learned with age.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bonecollector777 Report post Posted March 7, 2014 Haha what's funny is my original post was nothing about the azgfd not doing anything to manage wildlife. It was just one more example of how crooked a state game management is. Then came the same azgfd lovers to the rescue defending the game and fish and then I gave my opinion about the game and fish. To desert tacoma no I am not working on a wildlife management degree it is just a biology. I have truly thought about going into the field of wildlife management but due to my open feelings towards the department I don't think that is gonna work out nor would I want it to as more time passes. To coues magnet congrats to your brother on passing up on my little bull to kill the big one. I'm jealous. Now prepare yourselves, I'm gonna say something you won't hear often. Unit 23N and 23s are managed well by the game and fish. There are lots of elk and lots of big bulls as I witnessed on my hunt. Wanna know why there are? Because there are 15 archery tags and like 15 or 20 rifle tags. That is great for the elk herd there. Now in all honestly I have seen way less elk and quality bulls in 3C but somehow they shove 150 archery tags in there every year. And even worse was 4b until they cut back a little this year. I bet there aren't more than 50 elk bigger than spikes in 3c yet they give 150 tags? 4b doesn't have 150 elk and deer combined in the whole unit and they give 150 archery bull tags. I have never hunted 6A but holy sh#* they gave out 2875 elk tags I'm that unit this year! How many elk can possibly survive that? It's the insane amount of tags they give out that is hurting the quality. I also find it interesting as the azgfd sees they are murdering off a lot of the elk they have cut a small amount of tags and the same year they raise tag prices. Hmmm. . Utah every year us having the same quality of bulls killed there. They have huge deer as well if you're looking for somewhere with quality as good as az. Now take a look at the antelope populations, they have been doing well but slowly but surely tags have been on the rise and before we know it we will be back where we started. 26 rifle tags in 4b usually means 26 dead antelope bucks. Problem is there are maybe 25 decent bucks running around out there. The bighorn sheep have been doing great only because of private organizations and any ground they have made up in the past five years is being negated with 31 and possibly more being murdered in the Catalinas. My point is that just because azgfd goes and puts some water tanks out doesn't mean they are managing the populations well. You can ask any and every hunter that has been in 3c within the last ten years and they will tell you the quality and numbers is down so much its astonishing. Same goes for 27 and 1. The only reason they got so good is the fire. Then azgfd raises tag numbers by the hundreds and quality is on the downhill slide. I agree putting out some water is gonna help some animals survive. But that's not the only part to keeping animals alive. First and foremost you can't have hundreds of hunters every year chasing a small population of bulls in one area and expect them to survive. (23 is the exception) I don't know about 9 or 10 never been hunting up there. Why do you suppose they give out so many tags? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
couesmagnet Report post Posted March 7, 2014 Bone 777, 3c has had a dramatic increase of mule deer in both size of the bucks and quality of bucks. Also 3 c has several giant elk in it on any given year , especially top end bulls. I would say 3 c has close to as many top end bulls in it as 23 north has on a good year. Shane koury seems to prove thi on a yearly basis along with several other guides. I do agree that 3 c has to many archery tags, but the quality is still actually very good when compared to other states for elk. I would also venture to say that every unit that has elk in it has a world class bull here in Arizona and yes this included 4 a ,4b ,6a and any other chop shop unit with lots of tags. Even the limited opps hunts slash depredation hunts here in az hold big bulls from time to time and I can attest this cause I was lucky enough to harvest my best 2 bulls with a bow on depredation hunts(388 and 392)(only in az). It seems to me that Arizona has us covered from top to bottom unit wise and still offers a fellow be it lucky or good an opportunity at a solid bull if he get a tag. I will side on the luck side of course cause I need everything I can get , but it was the Arizona g and f that made the chance of getting lucky possible in the first place. Utah has a handful of good units that could be compared to az but an average unit in az is way better than an average unit in Utah. Your experience in 23 was only extra nice cause you had little to no competition which is a blessing but not the norm. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bonecollector777 Report post Posted March 7, 2014 I'll have to disagree completely with what you said about 23 and 3C being similar. Not even close. The big mule deer thing has come and gone. What big bucks were killed there this year? Or last? I'm talking big as in 170" or bigger. Shane kourey didn't and neither did anyone else that I know of. As for the bulls yes every year one giant bull comes out of there. 23 has multiple giant bulls come out every year. 3c used to have multiple giant bulls come out every year. Just because one hunter kills a 400 inch bull doesn't mean the unit is a quality unit. 4b a couple of years back had a 400 bull killed there but the unit as a whole still sucks. Ask anyone that has hunted in there the past 3 years. There are some elk but nothing to write home about. I also feel it's just a matter of time before azgfd raises tags in 23. I already heard rumors but haven't seen anything suggesting it. Bottom line is yeah every year big bulls are killed in Arizona. Used to be a couple 400 inchers from 27, couple from 3c, couple from 1, couple from 23N, 23s, 9, 10. Now it's a couple 400 inchers from 23, 9, 10 with the occasional one coming from other units. 3c two or three years ago didn't have a bull bigger than 369 come out of there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
couesmagnet Report post Posted March 7, 2014 I agree 3 c isn't what it used to be but there are several good bulls in the unit every year, as in bulls over 370. I don't know how long of a history you have in 23 but just a few years ago my little brother had the tag a the best 2 bulls were his ( 374) and another upper 370s bull. I spent 34 days straight in the unit that year alone, and along with some other really good hunters like jay scott and others the results where the same. There were no giants killed that year except for one on the early rifle hunt. The year before you had it which was last there weren't very many big ones shot either. It's all just a diff of opinions and besides we've diverted onto a whole diff conversation entirely. I still stand on the fact that 3 c on any given year could produce the biggest bull in the state very easily and on a good antler growth year will have several tremendous bulls, but I agree that it's over hunted by about 50 tags. I also still think units like 4 b 6 b 5 a 4 a and any other average units have a really big bull or 2 on a good antler growth year cause I've witnessed this on several occasions. Sure it's a numbers game but they are and were there , you just have to spend a lot of time finding them and then hope for luck. There was still a chance though. Gota love az. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Couescrazy33 Report post Posted March 7, 2014 Here for the last several years I thought the decline of animals was because of the drought and no water.. I guess I'm wrong must be g&f... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deserttacoma84 Report post Posted March 7, 2014 Here for the last several years I thought the decline of animals was because of the drought and no water.. I guess I'm wrong must be g&f... I was just thinking that the state of new york got 100% more rain/snow then the desert we live in. Could be why the newborns do so well there with all the water and food they have access to. Maybe G&f could do a rain dance or something.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PRDATR Report post Posted March 7, 2014 Here for the last several years I thought the decline of animals was because of the drought and no water.. I guess I'm wrong must be g&f... I was just thinking that the state of new york got 100% more rain/snow then the desert we live in. Could be why the newborns do so well there with all the water and food they have access to. Maybe G&f could do a rain dance or something.... I know when I was growing up there is was pretty common to get over 36" a year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deserttacoma84 Report post Posted March 7, 2014 Here for the last several years I thought the decline of animals was because of the drought and no water.. I guess I'm wrong must be g&f... I was just thinking that the state of new york got 100% more rain/snow then the desert we live in. Could be why the newborns do so well there with all the water and food they have access to. Maybe G&f could do a rain dance or something.... Yeah, DT84, it's apples to oranges...(or more to the point the corn we leave standing, brush we cut back, fields we bush-hog, oak and apple trees we maintain and streams we improve)... You asked what state has more game so you could hunt it, if you would like, or any CWT.com members would like to bow hunt our land in NY, your welcome to go with me(my offer has stood for a few years), it's interesting to see 20-30 deer(from Skippys to 130plus class whitetails) a day to choose from, not to mention the flocks of turkeys that over-run your stand... (Still, I REALY enjoy the Santa Ritas, and their awesome Coues, over NY's "easy" bucks) Still takes water to grow all that... I dont know how g&f can furnish that if there isnt any in the first place... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HUNTnTAT2 Report post Posted March 7, 2014 Ive been fortunate enough to help and call on some archery elk hunts the last few years in 4b. We were in elk every outting. Possibly the biggest living bull I've ever seen was there. And the two guys I was with also said that bull was the biggest live bull they've ever seen bar none. And it wasn't that "one" that was harvested. It was bigger. Just gotta find em. Also, didnt a record just get taken from 6a by a young lady that had people, again complaining. The Arizona model is quality over quantity. The number of tags don't help but it is a balancing act. If we aren't buying tags, game isn't being managed. Plain and simple. I think we would all like to see tag numbers go down. But resources to manage properly cost money. Alot of money. I myself am a young buck @ 25 but I try to see the positive in every negative situation I'am faced with. complaining never got anybody anywhere. It seems like this generation of Americans, whether you are 25 or 55, are a bunch of whiney-a$$ babies. nobody wants to put in the work but everybody wants to eat. Get involved if you are dissatisfied with whatever it is you are complaining about of be that shakey, nervous dog waiting for table scaps. This weekend im helping the mule deer foundation with a project in 42. A unit I hunt maybe 3/4 days in january when I dont have the time to go up north. You are welcome to join and put in some work but there will be no complaining or you will be called out. Good luck on the draw everyone! We should be glad we are fortunate to have the opportunity to hunt such a beautiful place! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
