Arizona looses court case!

[bullwidgeon]

I see that he proudly lists Realtree, Swarovski, Primos, Knight Rifles, Crooked Horn packs, Polaris ATV's and Barnes Bullets as sponsors in his brochure. Personally, it makes me sick that I own a pair of Swaro's and all future purchases of optics will be Zeiss or Leica or something other than Swaro's. The same goes for all these other products, there are alternatives to all of them that offer equal if not better products for the money. I think each of these company's should know how Arizonan outdoorsmen and women feel about their support of this joker.

 

Bret Mattausch

[az4life]

Today, I am afraid is the virtual dividing line between the "Good Old Days" and the Day we all hope will never come. "

 

Well after reading ALL of the posts previous on the topic, my .02 cents worth is already said by many othersHowever, Using this wonderful board as a vent for my anger is all I can do.

 

First, I will try to go to the meeting tomorrow. I work only about 5 miles from there so any input you would like me to carry along feel free to share.

 

Points I would like to state:

 

1 I believe the draw is not "legal" until it is processed which includes notification, so letting us know who was Shafted byt the USO B will likely be difficult or impossible to get.

2. I agree that fees for out of state permits should be raised, however, the Guides should only be allowed if they are AZ Residents.

3. BOYCOTT USO... DEFINITELY. Post your thoughts and objections to what this one JERK Montoya has doe to alll hunters, and do not allw him to profit from his treasonous actions( treason to hunters everywhere.)

4. One thing we all are overlooking, is the impact this decision could have in benefit of PETA and Anti Hunters. All they have to do is get some daddy warbucks to break off a millo bucks or so and they can effectively buy tags to prevent others from using them. This has been done previously but with the state borderlines now gone, The bank Vault is wide open!

5. I think one option to not void the entire draw might be to review the data, and see where the 10% rule was a problem. For example if out of state apps for a particular unit were filled 100% those units and hunts should be valid. Go with the original results since there were not enough out of state applicanst anyway.

Next, review the areas with less than a 100% draw sucess rate review and if needed re-draw only the units and hunts with problems.

Many more thoughts on the matter, but trying to keep it civil, so that said, I must reflect more on the long term potential impact this will have on hunting. Someone once said, "enjoy this time because these ARE GOING TO BE your Good old days."

[deserthunter23]

I agree Brett,its just the tip of the iceberg,I also have swarovski,crooked horn ,realtree and am thinking this needs to become an all inclusive issue.we do need to let these sponsers know that Arizona hunters will not be walked on.a full boycott of all USO and their sponsers is a good beginning.I dont take this out on all out of state hunters (or Guides),is a shame that this one organization can ruin so many dreams for so many people,I myself have 10 bonus points for 3 species,are these just out the window? what about my rights ? and all of your .

[GreyGhost85]

i am only 18, but i have hunted arizona ever since i was born. i have been lucky enough to have been drawn 9 out of 9 times for deer, and was successfull everytime, but i feel now that that is going to end. i got hooked on hunting these sneaky little critters we all like to call coues deer last year, mainly because i found out that they are fairly easy to get an october tag for, however i feel now that i might as well just start shootin my bow a little more, not only will i now feel hatred to all the foreign license plates i see bouncin' around in the hills, but I AM going to give them a piece of my mind because their signature is written across MY tag, their fault or not. i spend literally every weekend from mid-august till dec 31 every year chasing aroung deer, elk and antelope. its what i live for, and now it is all jeoprodised by a couple of no good, money hungry, MULTI MILLIONAIR guides looking to make a little more money. we need to do something, this has got to end.

 

thank you

[Red Rabbit]

Brett, I'll trade my hoochie mama for your Swaros. j/k

 

Seriously, it's been posted here and elsewhere that the nonresident fees need a substantial increase. While this retaliatory action may feel good, it will be detrimental to hunting in general and the long run. In no way, should hunting become a rich man's endeavor. I know more nonresident hunters who are our family members and friends than are nonresidents who contract with Taulmann. I have not put in for some nonresident tags due to the $750-$1000 price. I would like to dream of an out-of-state moose tag, but don't keep me going into r.e.m. sleep.

 

Doug/RedRabbit

[deserthunter23]

I noticed that at the top there is a place to start a poll? I couldnt figure it out.(computer dumb),anyone think it would be a good idea to take a poll to see how many of us would support a boycott of products used by USO,or at least write or email these companies.Its like big time atheletes,Im sure USO gets comped lots of equipment.hit this guy the only place he feels,his wallet.Steve

[KGAINES]

I am for boycotting certain products and I think every one of us needs to put in for the units they covet with at least our first choice, between us residents and the non-residents who are on our side in this we may take one of mr. montoya prized tags. I have never put in for Kaibab but it will be my first choice from now on, whats the downfall I don't get drawn, I already got that chance but now he has one more person on the draw against him.

I am Keith Gaines and I approved this message.

Edited January 1, 1970 by KGAINES

[Guest wetmule]

To all who have responded and those that will. I agree with all that has been said so far but would like to add a few thoughts. The AZ G & F lost this court case, they also have known for months that they were going to loose. A private individual resident along with a few others (nameless for now) months ago, hired their own attorney to combat taulman and this issue in concert with the G & F attorneys. They have spent upwards of $50,000 + on all our behalf fighting for us to remedy the situation. This attorney came up with a solution that would fix the problem by setting aside a percentage of the total permits issued in the form of commercial permits or outfitters permits much like how several other states handle their nonresident permits. From what I can tell this is a perfectly legal solution to the non-res cap issue, whereas the current system according to the judge violates the interstate commerce laws or regulations. It was reccomended to the G & F for them to let the judge know that the G & F was taking steps in good faith to remedy this situation by way of creating outfitters permits or commercial permits which could be limited to 10% or any number they wanted. As far as resident hunters go this would'nt change our odds of drawing, it would be perfecttly legal and Taulman wouldn't have a leg to stand on if he is trying to get more hunters drawn for AZ hunts. GUESS WHAT the G & F purposely failed to let the judge know that it was trying to remedy the situation. The G & F attorneys are incompetent and the whole dept. is to blame. When it comes to important issues they are just another bumbling beaurocracy that is reactive and not pro-active. I would strongly suggest that all of you get involved and voice your dis-pleasure in every way possible. As far as them not telling you if you were drawn or not, you have the right to know, it's called the freedom of information act, they have to give you that information. If I drew a STRIP tag this year or an early bull hunt and they give my tag to a non-res. You can bet that I will file suit against the Dept. I suggest you do as well. The odss of even getting drawn once in a lifetime are so minute these days you can bet I will be seeing them in court.

THE GAME AND FISH DEPT. NEEDS TO WAKE UP ! They are loosing its constituancy, that is all of us AZ residents. When we can't get drawn, when our kids can't get drawn they loose us, and we are the ones that live here, support them on issues like the Sabino Canyon Lion issue, provide them jobs and pay their salaries. When they cater to non-residents before they take care of the residents they are going down the wrong path. This on-line application process is convenient but it is bull---- when they don't charge all fees up front. They need to raise all permit fees and they need to reallly raise non-res fees along with some form of cap on the number of permits that non res. get.

WE ARE LOSING OUR AZ HUNTING RIGHTS YOU PEOPLE BETTER GET UNITED AND START VOICING YOUR CONCERNS AND RAIL ON THE G & F THAT IS SORELY LACKING VISION AND LEADERSHIP ! THANKS FOR LISTENING

[az4life]

Another point..

 

Some states do not allow guided hunts unless the guide is a resident of the state.

This MUST be adopted.

 

Many people have posted their negative feelings toward all out of staters, and I must agree that they will not be on my favorite list. That said, I think most of us could identify with the folks that go on an out of state hunt and "do it yourself". These hunters are generally responsible and should not bear the burden of the businessman guides like Montoya and USO.

Treat the other guys like you would want to be treated.

 

If the Lwyers of the AZGFD really did screw this up, they should be burried in ant piles and covered with honey. Disbarring would be nice too if they survive the ant hills.

 

Pray for a miracle on this one since it looks like that is what it will take to save our hunting heritage.

[Grey Hawk]

this is how i feel This is how I feel about "USO"

[Guest Ernesto C]

America!! if it is unconstitutional for Az. it will be unconstitotional for the rest of the states so be ready for the fight.

 

If my neighbor wants to give me ten apples of the one hundred he has why should I get mad???? Those are his apples,he can do whatever he want them.I should be pleased that he's honoring me with those ten. If dont like it,well to bad.

 

This is Az. Mr. Montoya if you dont like it... to bad take what you have or go back to where you belong,Is not Az's fault that you don't get more $$$$. If I go to your state should I dis-obey your state laws just because I'm a resident of Az??

 

for now on no more realtre and all those products that are sponsoring this ... guy. He does not deserve to be called hunter.

 

Lord I ask for your help on this,please bless us,please in the name of Jesus take in consideration our faith and whatever happen may the honor be for you only,do not let us get out of your holy hand just for a guy that is driven by money and selfishness. You know we obey the laws becuase that's what you like of us but dont let a ridiculuos law became a reality. Please Lord bless the people from the AZ.Game and Fish give them the wisdom to fight and win this situation,I ask you this in the name that is above all names,in the name of your Son Jesus Christ. AMEN[/b

 

My fellow members we will go hunting. Lets email this guy and all the sponsors he has,lets raise our voice.

 

Ernesto C.

[Guest Lark Hubbard]

like i said earlier, montoya is just taulman's lackey. he's a stooge. he isn't intelligent enough to find Arizona by himself. you guys notice another thing? i don't see any outfitters screaming about this either way. they are all for it because it will mean more $$$$ for them. i've heard that uso has gotten a lot of monetary help from other outfitters because for the most part they want this too. it isn't just uso. the common man just got hosed. except for what money i can set aside each year, every dime i make is spent in Arizona. every dime. taxes, cars, home, food, etc. every dime i make goes to support Arizona. and guess what, so do the rest of you Arizona fellers. out of staters don't pay anything but a license fee and maybe buy a little gas. outfitters don't contribute enough to this state to even matter. especially out of state outfitters. we need to look at the big picture. there's a lot more to this than not knowing if we get drawn for awhile longer. first thing needs to happen is outdoorsmen need to get organized and vote out this carpetbagger pig governor. where was she (it?) when all this went down? and from i can tell, the game and fish just put up a token defense and just watched it all happen. i remember a couple years ago some guys wanted to have a varmint calling contest and the g&f stepped in and stopped it because they were afraid it would offend some huggers. then they passed a law against it that was soundly defeated by the supreme court because it was unconstitional. then they stuffed these wolf/dog crosses down out throats, and the "california" condors. they rolled over on the sabino canyon lions, when there was nothing the governor or anyone else could do about it. it's time to have Arizona for the Arizonans. the game and fish commissioner is the weakest sob i've ever seen. he's nothing but an administrator. the commission is the politically motived bunch of weaklings i've ever seen. not one of them has anything but politicall gain in mind. they do not care about the buys that pay the bill. us. we need some tough guys running this outfit who will stand up for Arizona. and boycott uso. if you have a business they use like a restaurant or a gas station or whatever, throw em out. don't let these pigs get away clean. make it as hard as you can legally. if you know a uso guide, forget about him. this is serious.

[Guest Lark Hubbard]

oh yeah, one other thing. i can't believe i forgot about it. the game and fish actively campaigned to outlaw trapping in Arizona also. they were actively on the side of the huggers and that is why the bill passed. look at the facts guys. who side are they on? not Arizonas.

[Guest Dennis.j]

I am a guide in Arizona and have run a small operation for over 6 years plus worked for guides several years. I love to hunt and started guiding because I was tired of not hunting with the draw. This years ruling might help the guides but it will mostly help the larger operations its a shame that the game and fish did not stop this or come up with a solution before this all happened but i agree with most it is the greed factor. I am not a fan of USO having delt with the flying bastards who cant hunt unless they had a plane and was a instigator in stopping there flying operation. Note has anybody thought about uso and the record books. In the past they did not conduct fair chase Ill bet there hunters who killed filed these bulls in the books. Maybe if we pursued the records and the hunters lost there animals to the fair chase rule Mr toleman would really look like the jerk he is.Enough said. Mr hubard i appriciate your comments but there are several guides posting on this site. It sucks to do 100s of applications pay insurance and permits plus deal with all the so called guides who dont carry any permits license ect and get the money to find out at the draw that you only got 1 hunter. Just like the draw itself I live with the 10% rule and it is fine. The out of state hunter is not to blame and by the way most of my clients are Arizona clients. I dont think that all in the draw as proposed is the solution. Every western state has a quota system so either all change or they come up with a reasonable solution. It ironick that Montoya and tolman sue Arizona there own state has a quota ruling did any one forget maybe we should sue there state and all outfitters from here guide there. I also carry an outfitters license in New mexico. I think they needed a state that would roll over easy and we are it. The future looks tuff. Good luck everyone on the draw.

[az4life]

Montoya and Taulman have crossed the line with this suit. Unfortunately it is likely to stand since it sounds like AZGFD did not heartily defend against it. We must DEMAND that AZGFD defend and APPEAL this ruling. Even though the 9th circuit court of RAW DEALS is the place it has to go we must insist that it be done. I have not read anyone posting support for the ruling, and find it odd that the court can rule this way when it seems obvious to everyone that states have an obligation to givepreference to it's own citizens. Non Residents do not pay anything except the tag fee and residents pay the rest. So in effect we are paying money to our state to protect and develop our natural resources so sone outside SOB can come in and take what we residents have paid to develop. This is SOOOO Wrong and unfair.

 

Such a shame that 2 JERKS who obviously bend and break the rules to their needs have probably cost all of us a way of life. I know nothing about these guys except what has been posted here and on other sites but based on those posting with persoanl expeience with USO they are not in the hunt for anything but $$$$.

I hope I never meet one of them. I hope they lose their business and everything they have as a result of the backlash on this ruling.

 

Still venting I know but that is all we can do for now.