Unit 23 concerns

[Red Rabbit]

Talked briefly to a friend who had a unit 23 whitetail tag last year(not successful). He said the area behind Roosevelt Lake was hit hard by the drought. Also, the environmentalists have succeeded in having the cattle removed from the grazing allotments on federal lands there. This should help to further reduce the deer population as one of the lions' better food sources have been removed. Anyone been there and have some thoughts or factual input?

 

Doug/Red Rabbit

[Arizona Griz]

I haven't hunted 23 in a few years. A good way to measure the precipitation is check to see how full Roosevelt Lake is. Right after Christmas it was only about 9% full. After the rains we got in January and February and the small amount of snow melt off it has risen to only 30% full. I still believe the rain we got this spring didn't help that much. On another note, my friend archery hunts in the pines on the east side of 23 not to far from Roosevelt Lake and has not been wanting for deer to come by his tree stand. I think he just has a honey hole. Overall though, the deer must be hurting in 23 with the lack of rain.

Arizona Griz.

[bullwidgeon]

I am far from an expert on that area but I bear hunted in the mid elevation portions of the Sierra Anchas for a few days both in 2001 and 2002 and I thought in 2001 that the area held far less coues deer than it should. I saw about the same amount of coues last year that I saw in 2001. I was hunting near water that had been there all year both years. I imagine that country would be alot better during December though especially if the rut was trying to start. Something about 104 degrees and glassing lots of deer just don't go together. I did see a couple of bunches of deer go to water in the middle of the day (noon or so) which I thought was odd, I guess the heat makes it neccesary for them to drink more often though, I was not in the Pines, more in the Juniper/ Prickly Pear elevations.

 

Bret M.

Edited January 1, 1970 by bullwidgeon

[TAM]

It is my understanding that the Tonto National Forrest is pulling most if not all cattle off the forrest land because of the drought. I don't claim to be an expert either but I personally think less or no cattle is better for the deer and other wildlife. It seems to me that coues will tolerate cattle if necessary but prefer to avoid them when possible. I am not sure if this is because they compete for food & water or the cattle make a lot of noise and attract predators. While I do agree with Red Rabbits post above that the kittys will be forced to eat the deer as a result of the cattle being removed, I personally feel that the deer will still be better off without the cattle. It will allow the deer to recover from the drought conditions much faster because the deer will be healthier by not competing for food and water, which means a better fawn crop and the new fawns will do better at surviving the first few weeks because of more cover to hide in. I think this will be better for the long run, but that does not mean we should ignor the cats and even the yotes. Shoot 'em if you get the chance!

[coueshunter]

I spent alot of time in 2001 hunting the late hunt. I hunted up cherry creek road and hiked in after riding a 4 wheeler into an area that vehicles could not get into, the road was ripped up to bad. I worked my butt off to find deer, they would be in pockets even though the area looked ideal. I think the lions have killed tons of deer regardless of whether there was cattle or not. I think the depredation problems stem from years and years of under harvesting of lions and not just the recent last few years. I saw one 100+ buck and two 85ish bucks and the rest were small. I wasnt in the pines, I was in juniper/prickly pear and manzanita. My gut feel is the quantity of the deer per square mile is way lower than down south. I hunted around 12 total days and was a bit disgusted with low coues and muley numbers............Allen.............

[CouesWhitetail]

Hi All,

 

I went with a friend who had a unit 23 tag last Dec. We hunted the area by Roosevelt Lake. The deer density was actually very good. We saw tons of deer and there was a really high buck:doe ratio. However, I would say that the area has been hit hard by drought. It greened up dramatically though after some late winter rain and snow.

 

I also have to say that I think removal of cattle from that area is a good thing for deer and other wildlife over the long term. Lion densities in AZ are likely much higher than they would be if there was no cattle grazing. Taking the cattle off the land will probably cause the lions to eat more deer, although not in direct proportion to the loss of cattle as prey because deer are much harder for lions to kill than cattle. But deer populations are driven more by nutritional condition than they are by predator densities. Nutritional condition of deer is dependent on good rainfall and habitat condition. Deer in good condition will give birth to more fawns and survival of the fawns will be higher. Continuous grazing reduces the diversity and numbers of plants available for deer, thus reducing habitat condition.

 

I would say that in many of the hunt units in AZ, deer hunters take more deer than lions do. Lions definitely eat a lot fo deer, but they can not keep deer herds from increasing. They can, in some cases, slow the deer herd growth. There have been several studies in the Southwest that examine the effect of reducing the density of lions on deer populations. In some cases they reduced the lion population by 50% and the deer did not increase either because they were already at carrying capacity of the habitat or because there was a severed drought which reduced fawn survival.

 

You can read more about the effect of nutrition on Coues in the Coues Biology section. I have also been working on getting a summary of the relevant literature on the effects of predators on deer pops. Good habitat is the key to good populations of animals. Unless you have some isolated population that is under stress from some other variable (like a decline habitat condition), predators are not going to be the major factor controlling population numbers.

 

Amanda

[TAM]

I am not trying to defend Mt lions here because the truth is we have way to many here in AZ. I do think that while Mt Lions primary food source may be deer or cattle, they will also eat a lot of other small furry animals as well. A taxidermist I know once told me that almost every lion ever brought into his shop has smelled like a skunk, probably because they eat skunks. I am sure it is much easier for a lion to kill a small furry hopper vs. a crafty deer. I think lions will eat everything from rabits, coons & skunks on up to deer and elk when possible. I am not saying that they don't eat lots of deer, I just think there are lots of other animals that make up there diets as well.