warning on axis arrows

[Maverick351]

ok well as many of you know all arrows have tolerances, a +/- 3 thousands tolerance means 3k either way so if one arrow is 3k+ and the next arrow from that group is 3k- then that's a 6k total difference and that's just in the arrow. now factor in the tolerances of the insert and the point or bh going in. well with vaps you have a possibility of 6k either way then when you add their inserts of the same and a point add that together. well 6k for the arrows and approx. 8-10k for the inserts and then approx another 8 for a point so 6+8+8=22k total thousands of tolerance levels. so one arrow can be 22k thousands different from the next in the same group in your quiver. none of this is including the weight difference. well tell me how many of you would go buy an expensive arrow that lists that much of a possible difference and be proud to shoot it and have no concerns about the accuracy difference. its just food for thought

[HuntHarder]

I am trying to understand what you just said, but I do not. I do not understand how the point is victory's fault? Wouldn't all arrows have that same +/- on the point? Where do you get your info on their inserts being 8-10k off? What are other arrow company's +/- on inserts? My VAPs claim +/- .001 on straightness. Not sure where you got your .003. They make VAP V3's which will be .003, but the VAP V1's are .001. Please Elaborate, maybe I am missing something.

[Maverick351]

I wasn't saying the points are victorys fault. I simply am stating that the insert set up vaps use should have tighter tolerances. I'm glad you have +-1k arrows. Those are nice but the inserts remain the same for all. I am sure you have confidence in your arrows and that's important. The reason they make so many arrows by different brands is because not every one feels the same about every arrow.

[HuntHarder]

Where did you get your +/- .008-.010 on their inserts? If this is the case, I would be a bit concerned as well. Also What are other arrow's +/- on inserts? I can not find this data anywhere on the internet, and never thought of it when looking at arrows. If some companies are producing sub-par products, I would like to know about it so I can steer clear in the future.

[Maverick351]

It's somethingthat was measured with a digital caliper after trying to insert so many arrows and having issues with the inserts and fit. Most arrows with an insert/outsert have to have tolerance to allow fit. Think how much glue you put on one and how it would fit between the inserts and arrows if there was no tolerances

[MRL1984]

Maverick you work in the shop and all so I figure you will help with this part. Of the average shooter, how many can really tell the difference of 22 thousandths?

 

I'm fairly certain I can not.

[4Falls]

Been shooting axis for years never seen a situation like you described and I've shot trees, rocks and other unfriendly objects. I imagine its possible though. Could it be an issue with the shwackers?

[hunter74]

4falls I thought the same thing at first but I have shot (swackers) since they were first designed by rick forest and were called Sonoran's and have always performed flawlessly. here is what I was told by Easton that the HIT only supports the threads portion of the broad head and there fore causing side pressure on impact hence why they were breaking of at the thread and splitting the arrow not allowing penetration even on soft impacts. as far as the comment on victory's VAP's tolerance's I have a hard time believing that and not sure were you got your data from. but as a prior machinist I will take and do a tolerance test on the arrows and the outserts to see were they fall on a full dozen. I can speak for the broad heads tolerances falling in at less then .003 as I check all of mine to weed out any bad ferrules that might get through there screening.

[singleshot]

I have been reading quite a bit about this apparently "known" problem. People have been complaining about this exact issue of the shaft splitting or broadheads and field points snapping at the threads for a number of years. It looks like the easiest fix is the BAR offered by easton. Pisses me off though to have just bought a dozen. I would have went back to Beman Carbon Hunters had I known.

[Elkhunter1]

One would think that Easton would re-design the HIT knowing this problem.

[GotBowAz]

To fix the HIT system (without adding anything like footing or a Bar collar) would be to make an outsert which defeats the purpose of going to a smaller diameter shaft without making it 1 to 2 inches longer to get past fall away arrow rests on drawing your arrow back. Arrow such as Beamen are what I am referring to.

 

The BAR carbon collar is fairly in expensive and fixes the issue of the ends of the arrow from splinting out. It supports the end of the shaft where the BH contacts. This way you can shoot the same arrows with no change and keep them as short as your broad head will allow.

 

No Offence Maverick351 but I totally disagree with everything you had to say about tolerances. I work with tolerances even smaller than 0.0005 in the aircraft world daily. I can assure you a 0.022 difference from Id of a shaft to OD of an insert isnt going to be a factor in split out the end of an arrow. The arrow is splitting out because of the lack of support at the very end where the BH butts up against the shaft. Not because of the insert

 

First of all you have to divide that total of 0.022 in half so there for it would be 0.011 in stack out tolerances. The thick epoxy glue (that comes with the HIT inserts) will fill that void all the way around and the HIT insert tool will keep it centered. Problem with most archery shops is that they don't use the epoxy recommended by the HIT insert supplier. They use more of a thin super glue which is crap for HIT inserts.

 

2nd, in the worst case the HIT insert all the way to one side inside you would get 2 things, One being your BH or FP probably would have a difficult time screwing it in to the bottom and or 2, the BH/FP would wobble so you wouldn't shoot it anyway. I now build my own arrows and have found the tolerance very satisfactory and only in a very rare case would you find HIT inserts out more than 0.006 in stack out tolerances.

 

In this case, Spine has nothing to do with it.

 

GBA

[Maverick351]

Actually i think you misread my post. My tolerances were about vaps and i never said anything negative about axis as it is what i shoot. You are correct most shops don't use the epoxy, but most customers who want arrows don't want to wait 24hrs for epoxy let alone the over night time frame to build custom fletching colors. 95% of customers want arrows to go shoot on the range or at the least later that day.

[azslim]

makes my head hurt........glad my bow and I get along fine with GT's and Slick Tricks if I take my time putting them together, right now my set up ain't broke so I ain't going to fix it, while it is more than capable of shooting beyond 60 yds, I'm not. I do like trying to learn from you guys so keep it up.

[GotBowAz]

Maverick351, I understood what you were referring to and Im telling you that you remove the insert from your math equation on HIT inserts when their glued in with epoxy centered of the shaft. At that point tolerances inside the ID of the shaft and outside of the insert are no longer an issue no matter what the stack up min and max tolerances are. It is taken up by the epoxy. This goes for any arrow with HIT insert technology and this will make each arrow the same in your quiver from one to the next. After that then your BH or FP shanks ( unthreaded portion) will come into play.

 

Yes archery shops use super glue to speed things up. I say there isn't a problem for normal inserts that butt up against the end of the arrow shafts or for fletching. But I will tell you its a HUGE no no for any arrow that uses HIT inserts!! Superglue does not hold the insert center and can break loose because it does not glue the insert in all the way around, the glue is too thin. So on impact the insert breaks loose and it can cause the end of the arrow to mushroom or split. Normal inserts that butt up against the end of the shaft stay glued in place as the shaft supports the insert. Does that make sense?

 

This help address the OP original question. Use epoxy on hit inserts, use the BAR collars or foot the arrows or go to a completely different arrow. Im now looking at the EX PileDrivers as I can get a small diameter arrow with IMO a better insert design to protect the end of the arrow. If I can add brass insert for more weight and better FOC they look to be like a deadly combination at nearly half the cost of my 340 FMJ's.

 

GBA

[Maverick351]

Ok thank you. Now we understand why everyone is entitled to a difference in opinion. My post on tolerances were not about the hit inserts. I've stated that 2x now. To the OP and anyone else best of luck on your arrow choice and i hope they fly straight and lead to kills that leave great stories and memories for years to come. To gotbow i apologize for stating my experience of working in the archery industry as my form of knowledge on a subject i deal with many times a day and do so for a living. I respect your opinion and will bow out from further discussion.