A post just because it doesn't seem right

[43F]

The feds have up to a three business day hold on a "Delayed" NICS check. Arizona has nothing to do with that. After the three business days with no NICS status update notification, it is the option of the FFL (the gun store) whether or not to release the firearm. An FFL is NEVER required or compelled by any law to transfer the firearm. They must return money, as any business should if they do not deliver the product or service that was purchased. Again, final discretion of the sale does, in fact, fall on the FFL. There is nothing that can legally compel an FFL to transfer the firearm to anyone. All FFL firearm transfers are "at the discretion of the Licensee". The whole "California" thing just sounds like they were trying to buy some time and possibly be deceptive about not wanting to transfer the firearm until they got a status from NICS. The FFL's that I have worked for in the past have always required that we get a daily update from NICS for any delayed 4473's and to get verbal confirmation after 3 days that we were able to transfer the firearm. It sucks, but FFL's gotta cover their behinds too.

Yea, this is the correct answer, I don't remember anything about the Arizona Firearm Clearance Center.

[PRDATR]

What is he buying? Have him cancel his sale and go to someone who is actually a proponent of the 2nd.....I have a few in mind.....PM me

 

 

He said they will charge him a 20% Restocking fee.

[wildwoody]

welcome to the new obama states of america

[Redman]

I would fight the 20% restocking fee as he has not taken possession of it yet.... what happens if the background check WAS to come back with something to prevent the sale.... would they charge him 20%

[Seldom Drawn]

This is a rant and you can tell me if I'm off base.

 

2nd Amendment gun store in Tucson is holding a gun purchased by my brother beyond the required Arizona 3 days. The reason given was something like... we follow the rules of our California stores and the laws of California in this matter. While there is a small sign near the counter, it is one you generally wouldn't notice given the size and placement. After the purchase and money paid the form you then need to fill out also has this statement on the back in the fine print. So the store did state the rules if you really searched for them but otherwise did not mention it or discuss it. My brother only found out when he stopped in on day 4 as he was headed to Texas on day 5. His option is 20% restock (the gun didn't leave their stock) or wait.

 

This same store sells guns and magazines not legal in California I believe.

 

My rant is: This is Arizona, not California. There is a reason I don't live there. This store is doing business in Arizona and in my opinion should follow Arizona law.

 

EDIT: It just occurred to me the irony. They call themselves "Second Amendment" yet follow the rules of one of the state with the strictest gun laws .

Did your brother ever get in trouble with the law, if so they always have a longer waiting period.

 

Seldom Drawn

[azshtr]

I agree with the cancel the sale part. It was not clearly posted that would hold the gun longer than the 3 day requirement. But to charge 20% is out of line when it never left their stock. If he paid with a credit card (I didn't ask and he is now out of town) I would depute it as goods not delivered.

[n2horns]

call into the credit card company, indicate not received good/service and dispute the entire charge. if charged 20% afterwareds dispute that too. Go see Healey in Mesa

[mjanes]

My name is Matt Janes. My wife and I own Second Amendment Sports. We are Tucson residents. We also own two other shops in California, besides the shop in Tucson. I am an avid hunter and proponent of our civil liberties. We have two daughters. One is a graduated from UofA with a bachelor's degree and works with us in the company. The other served 4.5 years with the Army and now is a civilian working on boats in Savannah, Georgia. With that background in place, now let me address the original post's concerns and other's speculation.

 

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) requires all Federally licensed dealers (FFL) to perform a background check on all firearm purchases regardless of state. In the case of Arizona residents, background checks are performed by the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI), and is commonly referred to as the National Instant Check System (NICS), based in Martinsburg, West Virgina. This system was put in place by the Brady Bill years ago. The great State of Arizona has no laws in respects to this issue, nor do they become involved. Except for the fact that if you are the bearer of a Concealed Weapon Permit (CWP), you may bypass the NICS process, since your background has already been cleared by the Arizona Department of Public Safety (DPS).

 

NICS checks happen at the point of purchase. For the most part, FFL's call NICS and give them the information provided to us by the client on their Form 4473. This is the piece of paper you fill out when you make an application to purchase a firearm. CWP bearers still fill out the form, but that is all. All CWP applications are then immediately proceeded. However, if we call NICS on an application, and a client's background can not be understood to be clear or not by a level 1 clearance operator, it is placed as a "delay" status, pending further review. Proceeds on delayed status can take 5 minutes, or they can take a month. But the initial application is only good for 30 days. Many delay status' never receive a "proceed" notification from NICS. That is why after three BUSINESS days, if an FFL does not receive notification of proceed or deny from NICS, they may dispose the firearm to the client. Others may be immediately denied at that point if their background is confirmed to be that of a prohibited possessor. Denials may be appealed, but they take a very long time to work out, and the time frame varies a great deal.

 

Now on to our store's policy. We are told by the ATF that we have the right to choose who we do business with. We also have the responsibility to identify our client. We also bear the civil liability of improper actions with product purchased from our store. We are also told by the ATF that we are not obligated to dispose of a firearm on delay until it has proceeded. However, we all know that all governmental entities are pleading right now that they are "under staffed and overworked". And regardless of your opinion on that matter, they still are going to work at their pace. Now without naming any names, I guarantee you that there are many popular merchants in Arizona that do not dispose of any firearm unless your delay status has been proceeded. FFL's who choose to dispose of delayed transactions prior to receiving proceed status from NICS accept a HUGE civil liability. I guarantee that if we release a firearm on a delayed status before we receive a proceed notification, and that person uses it for ill intent, we are going to be sued. Now everyone knows that you can win the battle, but loose the war. So the intent for Second Amendment Sports to extend the delay to 10 TOTAL days, is to win the war. And sometimes you have to play it smart instead of passionate to when the war. When that nasty attorney grills me on the witness stand about our policies and procedures (because over a matter of time, it will not be if, but when), I don't want to be the dumb butt sitting there explaining to the jury that "we do the bare minimum to identify our client and give NICS the opportunity to respond to verify the eligibility of our client". Now why did we pick 10 total days vs. 3 business days some may continue to ask? It isn't because we have shops in California. I hate the Brady bill. I hate the California way of doing things. I think it proposes that we are all guilty before we are proven innocent. However, elected officials both at State and Federal levels have screwed us all on that deal. I personally feel that civil liberties are things we are born with, and that is why I named our shop what it is. Unless you are a proponent of slavery, anything less than that makes us bondmen. I also feel that God made man, and Sam Colt made them equal. And government does not make me be good. I choose that. And I choose to make my own way on earth. But there are too many people that feel like they need to be "protected" in life. That we need to be safe and secure. I call shenanigans. But I digress. We chose 10 total days, because we have found that 99.9% of the proceeds/denies will come within that time frame. Once in a great while, a deny will come after that 10 days, and we have to call local law enforcement to go track down that firearm. We don't want firearms going to the wrong hands. So like most policies and procedures, they make it inconvenient for all, with the actions of few. But they are put in place for a reason. I got delayed on every firearm purchase I made. So I got a CWP, and I walk with every gun that day now. Most people in their life continually are one way or another; delays or proceeds. So typically, if you get delayed, be prepared to be delayed the rest of your gun buying life. Lastly, we post with a sign that all delays can take up to 10 days to process. We also explain it to clients when they are delayed, that it can take 10 minutes or 10 days, but we will call you when you are proceeded. Then later we have clients that get impatient, forget that we told them "10 minutes or 10 days", and want us to break our policies and procedures because they want their firearm now. I get it, but if at the initial point of purchase, you said at that point "I don't want to wait 10 days, give me my money back", we would. But if you walk out that door, we assume you understood and are good to go. Then we re-order the firearm we just sold to you so we won't be out of stock. Then you come back in with a changed mind and want your money back, well who is going to pay for the gun coming to replace the one I sold you? We have to carry the additional inventory carrying burden. That is why there is a restock fee on a gun that never leaves. If you haven't ever been in business for yourself, and had to carry an inventory of something, you may never understand, or want to understand this principal. However, it is a real issue.

 

Now you know why we do what we do, and how it gets done. I think it is fair. We have the largest volume shop in Southern Arizona. We try to provide value, honesty and service with every client interaction we are involved with. Each store has a General Manager who is empowered to act in your behalf. You could actually look at him as your advocate if you will, to do just about anything he legally can for you. He wants you to be happy. He wants you to get your gun in a timely fashion. But if you go at him with a demanding attitude and think that he will reward negative behavior, you are mistaken. And if you think for one minute that I am a principle of a company that does not interact with, or know my client base, think again. My personal email address is mjanes@2ndamendmentsports.com If for whatever reason, you feel like there is something you didn't get a square deal on, or don't understand I will become involved if I have to. We are straight shooters and feel you deserve it. You don't get that promise from some mass merchant.

[muledeerarea33?]

very well said.

[Scooter]

Matt, thorough and very well explained! Thanks for jumping in on this!

[AZLance]

Excellent Response!

[Matt Meyer]

Wow. Awesome response

[azshtr]

Thank you jumping here but your not telling the whole story as I understand it... A 20% restock fee on a used firearm? My brother bought a used firearm. My brother was never told 10 minutes or 10 days. When he went for the firearm after 4 days the salesmen pointed to a sign, which I understand is fairly small and off to the side as "there was your notice". I'll add your salesmen specifically told my brother the 10 days is because of your stores in California. If they were wrong correct your salesmen, if I have my story wrong I stand corrected... I'd like to know which. I don't mind your policy, I do mind the way this situation was handled, and if your policy is a clear as you state it here.

 

My brother had a trip planned for Texas on the 5th day after this purchase. If he knew of the store policy he would have purchased another Shotgun he was considering. He wound up going on this trip without the shotgun he had planned for.

 

So... my brother SHOULD have been told 10 minutes or 10 days by store policy? He wasn't. The 20% restock is on used firearms as well as new? If so what are you restocking?

[muledeerarea33?]

I don't know your situation personally but I have bought guns from there, new and used. In the beginning I had my CCW but it lapsed a few years ago and I bought guns since, no issues. I have a friend (30 years old) who had a juvi record 15 yrs ago in Cali, last ne is also Taylor. Very common name. He gets a hold put on him for every gun he buys. Like the store owner said, if you've had a hold once, be prepared. Has you brother had a hold before? The one thing I can agree with you on is the restocking fee on a used gun. However I can't comment since I don't know the whole story. Overall, 2nd amendment has been good to me personally with guns and othe stuff.

[Heat]

I remember when I was a student at the U of A in Tucson all the Slick Willy gun ban stuff was going on. I went in to a smaller mom and pop type place to buy an sks. They had it, I wanted to buy it but they guy wouldn't sell it too me because I was 20 and not 21. I politely explained to the guy that the law was 18 years old for rifles and shotguns. He didn't go for it. I went down the street to Jensen's and bought what I wanted and was on my way. Some people are either way too paranoid or straight up idiots but it sounds like the poster didn't know the policy. Pretty cool for the owner to come on and set the record straight, even though I personally disagree with his policy on 10 days in Arizona and 20% restocking fee. I get delayed on 4/5 purchases and it has never, ever taken more than 3 business days to clear NICS.

 

Nick