What do do you think.

[sherman]

I have been told that there is only coues deer in az. But it seems like there a lot of big deer being killed at the upper end of a coues growth. And I have seen a little racked deer with a tail about 18" long and the old timers said it looked like a Mexican fan tail. The tags say wt deer. So do you all think we have more then one type of deer?

[PRDATR]

Are you asking if we have Fantail in AZ in addition to Coues Deer and Mule Deer? I have read accounts of old timers that handed down stories of isolated pockets of fan tails but I can't remember any actual recognition of them being a sub-species by G&F, P&Y, B&C, etc.

The only other sub-species of WT I know of is the Carmen Mountain WT.

[IA Born]

Every reference I've found has Fantail and Coues deer as synonyms and being the same subspecies. But what do I know? I'm a herpetologist first. As for other subspecies of WT, there are plenty: http://www.whitetailsunlimited.com/i/p/bk_distribution.pdf

 

But then I also think taxonomists go a little crazy. I've always been more of a lumper than a splitter.

[Becker]

I have a customer that claims that we have Coues Deer, Mule Deer, Whitetail (They aint no coues, big as a mule deer, top of the shoulders were above the top strand on a fire wire fence!!!), and Fan-tails!!! Too funny. I am a lumper the same as IA Born. You would think that being in the taxidermy trade we would have seen one of these fan-tails, or whatever else everyone calls these so called subspecies of deer. To me I think its all Coues Deer here in AZ and NM. There are lots of variations of colors in not only the hides but in the tails. We get brown colored capes, grey capes, salt and peppered looking capes, light, dark. They are just like people. We all look a little different! I have seen pictures of odd looking small deer and I think Jim H. at G and H explained that there is some dwarfism type genes that can cause smaller deer. I had one gentle man bring in one of the tiniest typical coues deer racks I have ever seen. He swore up and down it was a Fan-tail. Couldn't believe how big it was for a fan tail. Reality is it was just a very young coues with some good genetics. Jim Reynolds has some tiny three point sheds that are real similar to what this buck was. Next time your out looking at a group of bucks pay attention to the tails. Some are really red down the top, others more grey, some even a little black looking. Same reason I have dark brown hair on my head and my wife has blonde hair! My 2 cents.

[Heat]

Heffelfinger will be a good resource, but this Wildlife Biologist has to go with the lumpers on this. There is only one species of WT deer in AZ and that is Coues.

 

Nick

[sherman]

Thanks for the info I guess I was up to early and was just wondering. It don't matter to me as well just wondering. Thanks

[Week'nd WaRRior]

Sinaloa whitetail, Cabritos Spanish for small goat. Half the size of a Coues I'm talking tiny. Litlle perfect 3x4 or bigger racks. Seen em in the Pozo Verde mountains in 36c many years ago. Also in 36b at the end of walker canyon. Even got a shot off with my bow on one. Those little guys were always in buckbrush and catclaw. The famous Jack O Conner wrote an article bout em "Dwarf Deer of Sonora" circa 1963. The old watering holes /bars in nogales had beautiful little racks all over their walls. Ow how want one so bad

[JLW]

the 1 at the bottom of the left stair case a bass pro is a dwarf... LOL!

 

James

[IA Born]

I have a customer that claims that we have Coues Deer, Mule Deer, Whitetail (They aint no coues, big as a mule deer, top of the shoulders were above the top strand on a fire wire fence!!!), and Fan-tails!!! Too funny. I am a lumper the same as IA Born. You would think that being in the taxidermy trade we would have seen one of these fan-tails, or whatever else everyone calls these so called subspecies of deer. To me I think its all Coues Deer here in AZ and NM. There are lots of variations of colors in not only the hides but in the tails. We get brown colored capes, grey capes, salt and peppered looking capes, light, dark. They are just like people. We all look a little different! I have seen pictures of odd looking small deer and I think Jim H. at G and H explained that there is some dwarfism type genes that can cause smaller deer. I had one gentle man bring in one of the tiniest typical coues deer racks I have ever seen. He swore up and down it was a Fan-tail. Couldn't believe how big it was for a fan tail. Reality is it was just a very young coues with some good genetics. Jim Reynolds has some tiny three point sheds that are real similar to what this buck was. Next time your out looking at a group of bucks pay attention to the tails. Some are really red down the top, others more grey, some even a little black looking. Same reason I have dark brown hair on my head and my wife has blonde hair! My 2 cents.

 

Couldn't agree more. Having a background in genetics, I guarantee that you will definitely find variation in every species (or subspecies), including localized characteristics that may not occur in other areas if there is insufficient gene flow. Dwarfism is one of those things. If the bucks or does carrying the dwarf genes are readily reproducing (cuckoldry is very common in wild animals), then you will most definitely have deer in an area that are smaller than the rest. That certainly doesn't make them a separate species or even a subspecies (don't get me started on the definition of subspecies). In many cases, its nothing more than clinal variation within a species. Simple as that. If wildlife would ever read the publications we scientists generate, then they might start following our definitions of species and subspecies and they might even start looking like what we say they should look like!

[sherman]

Hey, thanks for the info again

[WalkingW]

A little off the topic but what about the mule deer Coues cross breed deer?? I know they are real and happen more than most think. Are they in a different class like a mule or? I belive these two bucks to be twin brothers that were born to a mule deer doe. I had pictures of them nursing on my old computer.

[PRDATR]

Look like WT to me right down to the tail and antlers.

[Becker]

Where all populations of Coues and Mule Deer overlap there is cross breeding. It happens pretty regular. There are lots of studies out there you can read, and I would bet a lot of the Coues that people shoot actually have some Mule Deer in them. I will have to ask my father about this study he was recently reading that went into pretty good detail about it. But the guy or gal found a substantial portion of the Coues deer in the study to have some Mule Deer in them (Not enough to make any kind of a difference but its there....). What generally happens though is the cross bred genes or DNA gets bred back out rather quickly. The first one has 50/50, then usually breeds back with the same species 25/75, and so on and so on.

 

Remember hair color (especially on the tail) generally is not proof that anything is a cross breed. There are so many variations that hair patterns and color are not good enough to use as definitive evidence. The necessary proof is usually a lot deeper than just appearance.