New world record Coues non-typical?

[Rembrant]

Last night I paid a rare visit to another hunting forum and read an interesting string about a coues skull that was harvested about 30 to 40 years ago on the San Carlos Res by a tribal member that has changed hands a few times and finally has been officially scored at 194???!!!! (or there 'bouts?).

Mr Kelso and Mr Epperson, will you guys please share with this forum correct information and photos? (Kelso has the skinny and Josh is an all around good guy who won't let us down).

Thanks guys,

Mike

[CouesWhitetail]

I hope Kirk will come and confirm the info. I was at the AZ state recordbook luncheon yesterday and spoke with some people who said it scores 196 and some change. They also said it had been DNA tested. Hopefully Kirk will have more info on it. I think Josh has a photo of it, but maybe Kirk has some too. It's supposed to be a 6x6 with tons of trash on it.

 

Amanda

[CouesWhitetail]

Here is the photo that Josh emailed me of the NWR non-typical coues.

 

[Guest Guest_Stanley]

WOW!!!! Look at that beastly rack!

 

I can't wait to see that crown mounted on a nice cape!

 

S.

 

[Rembrant]

Absolutely incredible!!

I figured we would see an eastern looking head and then question forever its validity, or at least until the dna results proved otherwise.

This puppy looks gloriously gnarley, twisted, massive and tight - just like a monster Coues.

Ain't it grand that this unbeatable world record came from Arizona and not Mexico?

Thanks Amanda and Josh for getting this on-line.

I would like to know everything about this - the whole story, the validity of the dna test etc. - any information about the Apache who shot it and who owns it now?

Thanks again!!

Mike

[Guest Guest_bullwidgeon]

about time that freak looking New Mexico carp was dethroned! That thing looks awesome. Arizona genetics+age = gorilla

 

Bret M.

[GRONG]

I'm not really going to make my decision quite yet but I will have to see the results of a DNA test before I'll believe it. This rack as well as the 186"er beat the current record by almost 30". That's like any of the other antlered animals being beaten by a TON!! If you put a Coues rack in perspective, the giant gap in scores is like a 425" NT muley showing up or a 600" bull elk. It doesn't happen that way. Records get beaten by mere inches, sometimes 1/8ths. If this buck looked like a Coues I'd be more apt to buy it. I've personally seen a lot of 130-150" bucks(mounted or racks mind you) and none of them ever showed any kind of height that either of these bucks have. The height alone and the forked G-2's make me very suspicious. Just my $.02.

 

Josh Epperson

[TAM]

Josh has some very valid points worth further investigation. But since all I have to go on is a single picture of the old record and the new record, in my opinion the new record looks much more believable than the old record.

 

Maybe it's me or maybe it's the picture but after I stared at it for awhile I don't see 196 inches of bone. I'm not saying they scored it wrong, I guess I'd just like to see it in someone's hands or next to another rack for compairson. It's hard to get a feel for it's size with that plain white background.

Edited January 1, 1970 by TAM

[kirkkelso]

Josh,

 

I agree with you 100% that the amount of inches this buck has beaten the "Real" world's record, by almost 40 inches is a hard one to swallow. Once the DNA methods can be established, then we should know for sure. However, this buck just has the "coues" look to me. yes, his G-2s are forked, but heck we've killed many bucks in the past with forked G-2s. If these were the only abnormal points on the buck, then I would be more suspicious, however with the others that accompany them, my bet is it is a coues. Just as you, that's my .02 cents.

 

KK

[Guest Lark Hubbard]

other than having at least one forked back point, it looks like all coues. to me anyway. i ain't an authority, but it looks quite "couseish". whatever it is, it is one neat rack. and there was a mule deer taken that would have netted around 450" once. an indian feller in new mex shot it around the turn of the century. when it was discovered hanging in a barn, the skull had been cracked and i think at least one antler had detatched from the pedicle. i've seen some photos of it and know a guy who actually got to hold it and it's pretty much accepted that it would beat the current world record by a bunch. there is at least one elk that grosses over 500". the shipsey bull. also saw photos of a rack that was found in unit 27 that gross scored about 550 but because of the unequal length of the points it netted around 375. had an enourmous 7 point antler on one side, like you'd see on a 400 bull and the antler on the other side had 7 also, but the points were all about twice as long. almost all the tines were around or over 36". couple of the points were over 40" long. if the big antler would have been equal on both sides, it would have scored in the high 500's, maybe even 600. the one antler is the most incredible thing i've ever seen. there are big animals out there. they live in rough country and get to be old and started out with good genes. heard this one was taken in the 60's on the san carlos rez. that place wasn't hunted enough to even matter then. it was covered with huge coues. i think this is a really big coues. hope so. don't need anymore controversies.

[COUESAZ]

I have been hard at work and not on the site much. I just saw this post , And would have to say it looks like a coues buck to me. With a nice tight rack and alot of trash. I can see it has some good mass that adds up fast and alot of points that add up just as fast. when you look at the jumps in elk in the last two years you can see it is not imposible to break world records. I know if some of the bucks of the good old days that have been lost to house fires and just been thrown out with the trash we would see lots of monster bucks that have not been under a tape.

 

I don't even have 2 Cents to give right now so that is all I can say.

[Rembrant]

If anybody is an expert on antlers, Josh is. If this thing turns out to be a hoax, we gotta give Josh credit. BUT, I'm with Lark. I hope it's the real deal. Don't need controvercies. It's OK by me - I wasn't planning to beat the world record anyway.

I'm happy its from Arizona.

If it is a hoax, the person responsible ought to be.... held resonsible!

Mike

[GRONG]

For the record, I wouldn't mind at all seeing a freak like this one being the current world record if legit. But I really am not going to buy it till I see the DNA results. I've just seen too many Coues deer antlers over the years to buy this one as a Coues. Now the biggest Coues antler that absolutly blew my mind was Jim Reynold's 82+" NT antler. I got to measure this thing and I was blown away. I had seen the pic that Amanda posted of it and had my doubts but soon as Jim handed it to me I knew it was a Coues deer antler. The beading on the bases, the shape of the pedicle all match what I've learned Coues antlers to be. I'm EXTREMELY attentive when it comes to how a Coues deer antler is shaped. They are different in many ways, but also quite similar, from TX or eastern NM whiteail, enough that I can spot a non-Coues shed with much ease. I'd like to personally see this monsterous rack, that would really help my decision, along with the DNA test of course. Now if this is proven to be a Coues buck then I'll suck it up. It would be freakin awesome to see that AZ has the record and not Mexico. Not that I have anything against Mexico, infact I'm quite certain that Mexico will beat both the Typ and Non-typ categories one of these days, it's just a matter of time. It's just nice to see it here in our state.

One thing that also strikes me funny is the fact that I've been buying antlers down at San Carlos for a while now and all the guys know that I love Coues deer and I've never heard of it being mentioned. Not saying that the rack could have laid in the back of a shed for a long time and the person saw an antler buyer in town that day and decided to get rid of "some old set of horns". I just wish I could have been the lucky SOB buying antlers that day in town.

 

Lark, that elk from 27 you mentioned, I have never heard of this thing. When was it found and how the crap can I get a look at this pig? The point length you mention is only stuff I've dreamed of. Sounds like one heck of a "What if?" bull.

 

I'm running out of $.02.

 

Josh Epperson

Edited January 1, 1970 by Josh Epperson

[bullwidgeon]

The way I look at is that Dan's deer is 184 and something gross. I am not sure what this thing grosses, but I can and do buy the idea that another 10-15 inches is possible for a coues to grow. I heard that Kenny Ball's buck from a few years back was only 3 or 4 years old when killed and grossed 150 something. Can you imagine what 4 more years and a few decent years of rain would have done to that thing ? This one looks "couesish" to me but I am far from an expert, I do like how it looks compared to the carp from NM though. The proof will be when they figure the DNA testing thing out, I just hope they kick that NM carp out .

Josh, do you ever go to Bylas to buy horns? I have seen a few nice heads that came from the indians there, seems to be a NT gene or two floating around in that country.

 

Bret M.

[Guest Lark Hubbard]

josh, the big bull was found by a game warden, it seems like. the guy i knew that had the photos took them at the trapper's den in showlow. chris may recall the rack. might give hime a call. the wierd antler was the craziest thing i've ever seen. if you saw it today, you would figger it was a computer generated deal. seems like the 3rd and 4th points were both 40"+. i just saw the pictures the one time and the guy that had em said he rough scored it. all the points were typical so the extra length on the one side was all deduction. the normal antler was really big. high 50's main beam and stuff. anyway, that's all the info i have on that thing. and again, the san carlos rez before the late 70's was virtually unhunted. a few apaches hunted there, but not many. what few gringos that got to hunt deer there were either in tight with the tribal chairman or got one of the few permits that the game and fish let out. remember, the tribe didn't control the wildlife until the late 70's. we hunted deer there several time when i was young and it was pretty much unbelievable by todays standards. for muleys and coues. i passed up 2 smallish 4x4 muleys on the first day once that walked past me at about 50 yards. when they were several hundred yards out they spooked and put up their flags. they were both huge coues deer!!! racks were so big i never even bothered to check em out for what species they were. my brother was coming around through some brush bird doggin' and i was waiting for one of the huge muleys we'd seen a few days before to flush. my dad and i saw a coues on new years day, 1967, that was in the same class as this one. much wider, not as heavy, but considerably more points. i worked in a gas station in my old home town and every weekend 2 lumber jacks from tucson would stop for gas on their way home from point of pines. they had some of the most incredible sheds and racks from dead coues you can even dream about. one time they had 3 set of locked racks, 6 heads, and all of them were in the 120" class. i know you guys are gonna say this is BS, but it ain't. it's a cryin' shame a guy couldn't have more access to the place. you could go anywhere you wanted, but deer permits were hard to come by.