Dirty tactics once again from the AZGFD! Now you'll know why to never trust them

[joe hunter]

So let me get this right.......If I shoot a bull on Thursday afternoon and can't find him and can't come back to look for him the next day I can have someone else look for him, kill him and put MY tag on him when he dies because he was going to die anyway??? I think I will carry a copy of this thread with me so if I am ever stopped and questioned about doing this I can show the LEO how it's done by their own people and tell him I put my friends tag on it after I killed it because it was going to die any way..... Have a nice day officer I'd like to shoot the breeze with you a little longer but I have some more elk hunting to do.

 

 

 

IMO... After reading the report I would be issuing the officers and the judge some citations.

 

If you can't come back and look for your elk after shooting him don't shoot in the late afternoon ! Ethics !!! Are these conservation officers green/rookies ?... If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

[hawkeye]

It's not even about this situation to me. It's more about what the AZGFD has become. I have never knowingly violated any game laws and have always tried to help the officers any time I could. I have even called and reported game violations. NOT ANY MORE. These last few years have taught me to mind my business, and not get involved. I will never help the AZGFD and would go as far as leaving one broken down or stuck in the mud. They have created an atmosphere of US against THEM. And everyone is breaking some kind of law in their mind. I feel for the few AZGFD employees that are truly good people, but you are working for a corrupt dept. The dept. answers to nobody and can do what they want. Absolute power will corrupt the best of intentions.

[THE RIFLEMAN]

This has been another messed up thread thanks to armchair quarterback analysis!!!

In life the one thing I have learned is that one enemy cancels out 10 good friends... (No one wants to be friends with an Ahole!)

Wives,jobs ,money and vehicles come and go but the mark of success is how many folks re-guard a man as their friend!

I like to think of my hunting buddies as my best friends! Some of the hunts Ive been on have tested friendships and some hunts have produced new friends!

I commend Mr Wagner for taking the time post his explanation of the situation he is going through with his hunting buddies/fellow officers! I am sure there are risks involved with his post.... I accept Mr Wagner's explanation as way more credible than some young trouble maker always whining wanabe in charge punks effort to stir up worthless crap!

Maybe the law was broken/bent/twisted but I believe after reading the document that justice was served....! There is lot's of grey area between "The Law" and "Justice" and I would rather be a friend of justice than an Ahole quoting the law about a situation not actually witnessed!

Im am sure I could drag out some dirt on someone in this very post and ask them to explain away their side of it and then 20 of you stone throwers would chime in quoting their interpetaion of the law and all kinda should have or should be this way or that! Bottom line is this mater of LEO Wagners elk hunt is a done deal , ruled on in court and last I heard you can't be tried for the same crime twice...Unless convicted then a second case can be taken to civil court for civil damages!!!!

This Coueswhitetail Kangeroo Court/Lynch Mob needs to find something better to do with their time then buy into an angry punk kids personal vendetta against the AZGFD .......JUST SAYIN!!!!

My intuition says maybee BC777 has been in a little trouble his

own self and likes to see other people suffer along with him! Misery loves company!

When Jan Brewer reads his letters she will invite BC777 to her office , put him over her knee and give him a little spanking that way he will have something to really cry about!

[Non-Typical Solutions]

Non-Typical

 

It is called due process.

So if we just be quiet and not talk about it everything will be just fine right?

 

All I am sayin is if what I quoted is correct......what would have happened to me as a hunter, that is all I am asking.

 

Would I get that same due process???

 

Yes, you as an American under the Constitution would have the same due process.

 

Better ask if you would rather be judged in the courts or by the lynch mod that has formed on this forum?

 

Cheers

Exactly my point Jcubed.........If I am a G$F insider and I know they are going to let me off the hook with a slap of the hand then I want to be judged by the "system" who will let me walk for turning my tag over to another person as opposed to being judged by those who are going to hold me accountable by the same standard that they have been held to.

 

Pretty simple, not wanting to lynch anybody, just want the meter to be the same.

 

You keep avoiding the question posed.....did he leave the tag with another person, and is that not a violation?

 

You talk about constitutional rights.....where in that constitution does it say some get one punishment while others get a lesser punishment for same violation??

 

If he doesn't get the same punishment as what I would get, my constitutional rights are the ones that have been trampled on because he and I were created EQUAL right?

 

You bring up good points and obviously we don't see eye to eye on this and that is what makes the world go round.

[WHT_MTNMAN]

Karma is a B.... Wagner is getting some of it back and Owens you will most likely get yours.

I don't ever wish bad on anyone, but I've observed that those that build themselves up, fall the hardest.

[THE RIFLEMAN]

This has been another messed up thread thanks to armchair quarterback analysis!!!

In life the one thing I have learned is that one enemy cancels out 10 good friends... (No one wants to be friends with an Ahole!)

Wive,jobs ,money and vehicles come and go but the mark of success is how many folks re-guard a man as their friend!

I like to think of my hunting buddies as my best friends! Some of the hunts Ive been on have tested friendships and some hunts have produced new friends!

I commend Mr Wagner for taking the time post his explanation of the situation he is going through with his hunting buddies/fellow officers! I am sure there are risks involved with his post.... I accept Mr Wagner's explanation as way more credible than some young trouble maker always whining wanabe in charge punks effort to stir up worthless crap!

Maybe the law was broken/bent/twisted but I believe after reading the document that justice was served....! There is lot's of grey area between "The Law" and "Justice" and I would rather be a friend of justice than an Ahole quoting the law about a situation not actually witnessed!

"Friends" that Break,bend, or twist the law have NO place as my hunting buddies, but I guess it OK with you RifleMan and G$F officers... PFFFFFF...

As to accepting Wagners explaination, it seems selfserving and incriminating of past crimes...

Put on the Badge and you are held to a higher standard then a citizen, as it should be...

Break the LAW while wearing that Badge and the penalties are higher, as it should be...

I and many others respect the Badge and the Job of LEOs, when something like this happens, it is SLAP in the face to ALL who wear the Badge and live the JOB...

So oneshot are you a friend of this holier than thou BC777 who started this worthles thread? I see he is not listed as your friend! If a LEO chose to go by trhe letter of the law to the T in every instance than I assure you that even "Holier Than Thou"BC777 would not have a licsense to hunt in AZ or me for that matter! You sound like another perfect stone thrower to me!

[ThomC]

I have got news for you youngsters. All people in authority (whatever that may be) will bend the rules at times. You guys old enough to have kids know that sometimes you have to be solomon and it is not that easy. For G---s sake we have a president and other pollutions that would allow someone to be killed to win an election. You expect the most under paid police officers to be perfect. If you have lived in the real (and some of you dont have a clue what really goes on past your nose) world, that sometimes things happen that dont and wont fit into your defination of right and wrong.

 

First those that are without sin may cast the first stone and on the follow thru pat yourself on the back.

 

Last life is not fair and then you die.

 

Carry on with your fun. It is now happy hour and I will have a "Perfect Manhattan" and all will be good. LOL

 

 

PS I bet that most of you perfect people dont know how to make a "Perfect Manhattan."

[Non-Typical Solutions]

No claim to perfection and know nothing about a Perfect Manhattan.

 

I am old enough to have kids and I know exactly what the law did with my kid and none of it was by the book and my kid paid.

 

Lesson learned and we moved on but the quote of the day is "I want my lawyer"......before another word is said.

[AZLance]

This has been a great learning experience for my son. After graduating hunters education class, he thought that G&F officers were the good guys and thought they walked on water. Well after I explained to him what happened in this case, and had him read the 14 page court document, he has a new perspective. He now realizes that just because you have a badge, it doesn't mean you are on the up and up. He has been taught to respect authority, but now realizes their are bad apples in every profession.

 

I told him the only thing you should ever tell a G&F officer is, " here is my license and tag, any other questions, please call my attorney."

[prowlerMan]

Let me start off by saying I do not personally know officer Wagner. I would not normally participate in a thread like this because i hate fussing and fighting but i feel i must chime in. When I first saw this thread it intrigued me because this happened in a unit I know very well/hunt on a regular basis and he just so happens to be a warden in this particular unit. Having run into a few of the wardens up there I decided to google him to see if I recognized who he was. Upon googling him I immediately recognized who he was. I have run into him several different times and let me tell all of you this.....every time we have met he is a CLASS ACT! Caring, helpful and respectful are my only words i will use describe him. He is my favorite warden to chat with! It is very obvious why he has been awarded officer of the year not once but twice. I was not there, I was not in court, and I do not know what really happened and either does anyone else except for the ones that were there. He is not above the law as is anyone else in this great country! The case was tried in a court of law and if there was significant evidence of wrong doing there would have been repercussions. I say drop this thread!... Stop the fussing and fighting!.... It will only utimately lead to the divide of hunters and the heritage we all know and love!

[bonecollector777]

Whew . . where to start! First off I would like to ask Rifleman what the name of his Boyfriend is that works at AZGFD? I have never seen anyone so blatantly ignore facts that were shown in a court document and proceed to suggest that me passing on information pertaining to law breaking government officials is worthless crap. The only kind of people that would want to ignore this illegal activity would be an employee of the Game and Fish. Or a lover of one of the wardens. Still haven't figured out which one it is.

Next thing I would like to point out is that Wagner was not EVER tried in court for the laws that were broken. This court document pertains only to him suing the game and fish. Which I agree completely that they did the investigation wrong and were punished for doing it wrong. The point that a lot of us are missing is that NO ONE who was there that day that broke several laws or had something to do with this cover up was issued a citation. NO ONE. The only reason I was able to find out about this case is because of the fact that Wagner sued the AZGFD. Had he not there would have never been a court case to get papers from. They would have all stuck with their agreement that no law was broken, which is completely insane, and went on with their lives. The only way we would have been able to find out about it is if someone knew it happened and issued a subpoena of the investigation of Wagner. Which is what AZGFD thought would happen. That it would be forgotten and not brought up again. Unfortunately for them Wagner sued and now the word got out. So Rifleman and all others that think Wagner was tried and proven not guilty, read up on the case and realize NONE OF THESE GUYS WERE EVER WRITTEN A CITATION and therefore never even had to be tried for any wrong doing. Because their supervisors wanted to give them the "employee discount" that only AZGFD employees receive.

The next mind blowing fact is that three different government agencies who's sole purpose is to investigate illegal activity botched the investigation three separate times as seen in the court documents. Fishy maybe? Who knows. . but it is hard to believe that those that know how to investigate and have investigated thousands of people managed to "do it wrong" three times which led to the suit filed by Wagner. Were those involved from the AZGFD punished? NOPE. They just continued on with life in their same positions. Would the investigation have been botched had it been any of us "normal folk"? I think not.

For all of those that think I have something against the AZGFD because I have been in trouble are more than welcome to check my records to see if I have even so much as received a speeding ticket in my life. This isn't about revenge or spite. This is about years of seeing this corrupt department treat good people like crap. Good and honest hunters who make every effort to be good sportsmen that make one mistake are then turned into criminals by the power hungry game wardens. These same power hungry game wardens turn around and commit much more serious offenses and know that because of who they are nothing will happen to them. Time after time after time this happens. We have many examples of this corruption. Here are a few:

• A commissioner shooting prairie dogs out of season and being let go scot-free when a couple years before that he was insistent a hunter lose his license for five years for doing the same thing. That hunter lost his license. The commissioner was not disciplined. http://www.coueswhitetail.com/forums/topic/34635-commissioner-husted-suspends-hunters-license-for/?hl=prairie
• That same commissioner accused of various sexual harassment charges. Was not tried legally and is still a reserve warden for the department http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130417arizona-wildlife-chief-quit-under-fire.html
• A jaguar killed by the Game and Fish. Many stories were given to hide the truth. No one was disciplined. http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/20121215macho-b-death-jaguar-mystery.html
• This case that is being talked about right now of game wardens knowingly breaking the law and then cover it up and are never even issued a citation.
• An investigation into John Romero, a famous reptile biologist for the AZGFD. What ever happened to him? http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/20130130arizona-game-fish-official-under-investigation.html

These are just a few examples and I know we have all seen more of this taking place. Sad thing is these are the few examples that ever get to the public. All the others never get out of the AZGFD offices.

Some on here are thanking Wagner for coming onto this sight to comment. While it was a nice thing to do (but completely for himself to look like a nice guy) and while some of you have had good experiences with him still doesn't excuse the fact that numerous laws were broken by the people who claim to know them best. Not only was no one punished, but no one even received a citation.

I think we have all vented and explained how we feel. Now it is a matter of whether or not we are going to put up with this from the department who takes care of our wildlife's future. I urge you to write, email, or call the governors office, the attorney generals office, the game and fish office (probably won't help but will let them know how we feel), and the news channels. If there is enough pressure things will be taken care of. If we all sit back and do nothing, things will only continue to get worse. There has never been more support from Arizona hunters or a better time for all of us to stand up and make change happen. Below I have listed links to phone numbers and emails to contact the leaders and agencies that can make this change happen.

• Governor Jan Brewer: http://www.azgovernor.gov/Contact.asp
• Attorney General Tom Horne: https://www.azag.gov/contact-us
• AZGFD: http://www.azgfd.gov/comments.shtml Main office: 602-942-3000 Director
  Larry D. Voyles 602-942-3000 Deputy Director
  Ty Gray 602-236-7100 Legislative Liaison
  Tony Guiles 602-942-3000 Community Congressional Relations
  Ben Alteneder 623-236-7334
• ABC 15: http://www.abc15.com/subindex/about_us/contact_us
• The Arizona Republic: http://www.azcentral.com/news/investigations/tip-form.php
• Fox 10: http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/category/233631/contact-us
• News Channel 3 KTVK: http://www.azfamily.com/on-tv/contact/
• CBS 5: Email: 5investigates@cbs5az.com/ Call 602-650-0711

[joe hunter]

_{Some of you guys get on here and no matter what a person does, to you it's OK. He/they broke the law...it's OK leave him alone, he/they screwed someone over....it's OK leave him alone, he/they did wrong but he is a nice guy to talk to ...it's OK leave him alone. When you see a wrong you need to try and right it !! If I see someone poach wildlife should I do something about it or should I just turn my back like a lot of you do ? You can bet AZDGF wants me to do something about it, they will even PAY you to get involved. It's plane and simple these guys did wrong. Are they going to teach this in hunter ed...... you can't do it because it's illegal but a Conservation LEO and his buddys can. We aren't going to divide hunters AZDGF is going to.}

[stanley]

Hello All:

 

Amanda is out in the field studying owls and hence hasn't had the pleasure of following this thread. She pays myself and a couple of others the BIG bucks (Joking here of course... It's a volunteer position. ) to help moderate the site while she is busy doing her biologist thing. Sometimes while she is gone I find myself asking WWAD (What would Amanda do?). In this case, I think the answer is to lock the thread.

 

Opinions are clearly strong on this topic, and for good reason. Lots of information has been provided, opinions shared, and plenty of name-calling too. Seems like most everything has been said at this point.

 

If you have any questions, please PM them to me.

 

S.