New to Area - Unit 30A Tips

[azdave]

OK, I guess my statement of it being a "different" perspective and not wanting to argue doesn't matter---you obviously, by the nature of your post---DO want to argue.

 

WHO do you think made 90% of the two-tracks/trails IN THIS STATE?????? RANCHERS and the early MINERS!! THATS WHO!!!

Can you imagine what access would be like WITHOUT the trails THEY built??? YOUR taxpayer dollars didn't fund this!!

I'm speaking of S. Az---in the north logging companies also built the access roads.

 

From the 1870's to the 1940's, ranchers and mining interests trying to eek out an existence in S. Az were allowed, and even encouraged to "make whatever improvements" necessary to facilitate that---AND NOT with taxpayer funds.

 

Ranches like the Klumps were going BEFORE the "public land managers" began deviding things UP in the first few decades of the 1900's!!!

 

Ranchers MADE these roads to access different parts of there ranches, AND public lands, for various reasons----the same two-tracks you may drive on is probably the same one THE original rancher rode on 100 years ago!!!

 

Notice how so many of the trails we enjoy driving on in the hills end at windmills, corrals, cattle tanks, mine shafts, prospect holes, etc., THAT's because the RANCHER's and MINING INTERESTS needed to get there and BUILT a road----IT has nothing to do with YOUR TAX DOLLARS or some public land administrator WANTING to give US ACCESS!!!! In fact, THEY would rather that many of the existing roads NOT BE there now, so they could designate more as "ROADLESS WILDERNESS"---it's much easier to "manage" public lands that see less visitors. Only G&F cares about hunter access--because its their livelyhood---the other land depts would rather see less people in there remote areas--believe me.

 

CALL a FS or BLM office-----talk to someone that KNOWS their history---ASK how many rodes that they have "CONSTRUCTED"!!!!!!

 

Bet you find out that its VERY, VERY FEW-----they may MAINTAIN many roads----but not CONSTRUCT them.

 

They have historically relied on EXISTING roadways!!!

 

Thats why some areas have NO roads close by---ranchers and miners had NO NEED or desire to get in that particular area, so one was NEVER BUILT!

 

 

One of thier(public land agencies) selling points to SOME ranchers is that if a rancher allows access across his land----the "dept." will maintain it--therefore he gets free road maintanence. To some the tradeoff is worth it, to some it is not.

 

The whole "roadsign issue" is this----the FS (or whichever) placed signs on an EXISTING roadways WHEN access WASN'T an issue!!! Then it BECAME an ISSUE---AND, the rancher LEGALLY closed it----thats why there are signs on roads with NO access---there presence DOESN'T mean THEY MADE THE ROAD---they simply USED it as long as they LEGALLY COULD!!!

 

About the different dept.'s NOT being able to "make things happen" together---bullshit---when THEY WANT things to happen----it is AMAZING how much "red tape" gets skipped over or 'expedited thru'. I've seen it done.

Now if YOU try to make anything happen with them---pack a lunch!

It is NOT a huge task, and actually pretty inexpensive to push a "usable" two-track---WHEN THEY want to do it---i've seen it done---when they DON'T want to do it---they claim "environmental impact" issues

 

I agree wholeheartedly about the "lease land" issue and some ranchers attitude---I've asked "is this deeded land we're standing on???" to more than one------but thats a whole different topic.

 

PLEASE show me how many roads across ranches to public land that the TAXPAYER payed for. If you can show me 100 miles that THEY built and payed for with taxpayer dollars---I'll show you 10,000 miles that ranchers and mining interests payed for!

 

This road going to the top of the Dos Cabezas----please research WHO made it & WHEN it was made, I honestly know nothing about it, but I bet "we didn't" help flip the bill, you might be surprised at what you find.

 

So lets say your neighbor says "I'm going to cut thru your backyard to get to MY house from now on"-----I'm sure your reaction would be "sure, why not, how DARE I deny you access to YOUR place"----go ahead and say its not the same thing.

 

WE either HAVE private property rights in this country or we DON'T----Just because some landowner EXERTS his property rights and its NOT CONVENIENT to you---DOESN'T make their RIGHT any LESS VALID or legal-----and thank God that the courts and law of the land AGREES----that is WHY they can do it! PERIOD!!!!!!

 

If these "roads" WERE built with taxpayer dollars and WERE legal "easement's"---believe me, the gov. would enact "emminent domain" and MAKE IT public roadway---but they KNOW that these roads wouldn't even BE THERE if it wasn't for the ranchers and miners!

 

I knew MY perspective and OPINION wouldn't be popular---but, unfortunately I BELIEVE its quite truthful.

 

I was bitter for many years over it AS I SAID------But after having ASSHOLES damage MY property that i can't stay there full time to guard, I understand.

And I diverted my bitterness to the "REAL" problem behind all this---SLOB hunters and campers, CRIMINAL idiots with guns that shoot up windmills and watertanks, Idiots on quads that think its OK to leave the trail and tear up the countryside, etc, etc, etc. PERIOD!!!!!

 

I simply tried to give some possible reasons why one particular rancher cut off access---but this turned into a rancher vs. access debate.

I respect your opinion, but don't share it.

[SunDevil]

Dave, didn't know I was arguing. Just stating my "different" perspective with authoriti. Didn't know we were talking about miners? Mining companys usually don't lock the gates to roads that lead back into public property. Perfect case in point is the catchment road that leads to the top of the dos cabezas. It is just a couple miles down from the Klump's locked road and goes right through private mining land at the base of the mountain. And besides, the Klump's are not miners they are ranchers. Just because they inherited some claims doesn't make them miners.

 

Like I said, I don't think anyone was holding a gun to their head forcing them to make the improvements they made. They did it out of choice.

 

All I know is that it is extremely, extremely frustrating to try and go to some of the places I went to as a kid only to find locked gates. Just because something is legal doesn't mean it is right.

 

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, this is a big deal!!! Did you know that G & F has full time employees who's sole purpose is to work with land owners who have locked up access to public property only to try and get them to unlock their gates. That is crazy! Yes (and unfortunately) it is now necessary but what a waste of resources (time, energy, money, etc.).

 

Also, redirecting roads around private property is a huge ordeal. Why do you think the new road into Long John canyon in the Chiricahuas made the Tucson news paper? Because it was a big deal!!!

 

Finally, maybe you should have followed your own advice and thought twice before you "shared" your knowlingly unpopular opinion. I bet most of the people on this site at one time or another have gotten frustrated about access issues. If you go back to my original post, you will find that I was not stating any opinions, only providing a little history about the Klump's and the access issues with the Dos Cabezas. You are the one the chimned in with CAPITALS, solutions to the problem, fault finding and defense.

 

And why would the "FEDS" have it in for the Klumps anyway? Or any of the other ranchers? Because that is what they all think (apparently you too). Trust me I know. My wife has a cousin who married a Klump. My wife also use to work in federal law enforcement. One time her cousin called her and asked her if she could find out if her phone was tapped. Hello? Do you have any idea what law enforcement has to do to get a wire tap? Ever heard of a grand jury? I see them every once and awhile at family reunions and they are always talking about how they have to hold their rancher meetings at secret places and times. And how they can't talk about their 'business' over the phone because they never know who might be listening. Let me guess, it is all a big chicken and pork conspiracy. The feds don't want people eating red meat. That is it. Glad I figured it out.

 

Good luck on your unit 31 hunt in October. Hope you are able to get into all the spots you want to and don't run into any locked gates. I will be helping a couple buddies out in 30A. Probably the Dos Cabezas. We will probably walk the locked gate road to the top of the mountain and run into several people in vehicles who are some good ole boys and got the key from Klump.

 

Later Dave, talk with you tomorrow. Chris.

[BRYCE CANYON]

My cousin is married to a Klump...he has got to be one of the best men I have ever met.

[cramerhunts]

I went to school with the Klumps and even dated one of the girls for a while. They are for the most part good people but that doesn't mean that I agree with the way they do things and there are a few of them that are not good people. Like locking the road that goes by the old gas plant on the NE side of the Dos, I mean come on that is a county road. I have personally seen them do more damage to land and property themselves than five years of hunters would do.

I used to be one of the "good ole boys" who got the key every year and would drive to the top until I saw some of the things they did to people's vehicles that were parked by the locked gate and I have not been back since.

 

I have to say that they have taken it to the extreme and have locked off alot of land that shouldn't be.

[azdave]

I guess when someone repeats things like PERIOD! PERIOD! PERIOD! and embolden's whole sentences---I take that as "shouting" and arguing on the internet...............I was wrong

 

The reason MINES came up is because this turned into a "general" discussion of ACCESS-----AND my point is that MINES contributed to a HUGE portion of the access trails we ALL enjoy----pull out a FS map of the Santa Rita's, Patagonia, Arivaca areas and look at the "existing" FS roads, same with a bunch in the Dos Cabeza's----guess who's responsible for those roads. MINES.

 

Or, do this... take out a few FS and BLM maps---honestly Hi-lite all roads that "obviously" are there because of a ranching or mining interest.... then look at whats left.

Remember, the rancher didn't "place" a windmill...then the FS pushed a road to it for him...HE built the road, to then place a windmill.

Same with the mines....I'll bet they didn't just "happen" to place their mines next to existing roads that FS made....they found a good "prospect" then BUILT a road to them. This was done by THEM, for THEIR livelihood.....not you or I.

I'm thankful for the ones I am allowed to use.....think FS or BLM would have put them in for us?

 

YOUR claim was that YOUR tax dollars pay for this access------my claim is this access was MADE by ranchers and mining interests. Your tax dollars had NOTHING to do with it.

 

You obviously feel an "entitlement" to drive on someones personal, private property---on a NON-public roadway.

DON'T you think that if this WAS a PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY, payed for with TAX DOLLARS and BUILT by the GOV. that there would be a "forced opening" of access??????????

 

This has been "tested" for legality---guess what, because these AREN'T public roadways, WEREN'T built with taxpayer dollars or BUILT by any gov. agency, there is NO legal foot to stand on---and land managers KNOW this.

 

I acknowledged your frustration several times, and said I SHARED it for a long time!!!

 

I understand this problem---I've scouted an area years ago HARD---knew right where I was going opening day---just to show up at 4 AM to find a locked gate---wasn't locked for MONTHS prior.

Want to talk frustration??

What did I do? Altered my locations to NOT have to deal with this crap. That was a"last time" for me---and yes, I was bitter and frustrated---but I adapted, by reason that there is PLENTY of places to go that I don't have to cross private land .

 

YES---there are ranchers that take this stuff to far---just like the "outdoor" crowd that take things to far.

YES---there are asshole ranchers that have done things "unnecessarily"---but there are many more who have done things for a REASON.

 

WE all pay for the actions of other, unfortunately---and that ADDS to the frustration around here--because my "guess" is that anyone frequenting a board like this takes his hunting serious and is most likely VERY ethical, respectful of property and honest----therefore he is "losing" the most in this.

 

I worked for a HUGE rancher (turned developer) in the late 80's--early 90's---this guy owned most of the Sonoita hill country, huge portions of the Empire mtn's and several ranches in the Sasabe area----he was locking gates way back then, but I didn't listen to the reasons---I just argued that he was an butt, and we would have heated discussions over this. But after I discussed things with Mike Ware, I started to understand and see the problem for what it is.

 

I don't quite understand your statement that "I should have followed my own advice" by NOT posting this here----I DON'T recall saying "I shouldn't have posted my perspective"------I said I knew this would be "UNPOPULAR"-----big difference----I figured we are all adult men here and can discuss such things without it getting out of hand-----obviously some people can't listen to differing opinions or perspectives and respect them. Whatever.

You can say I "chimed in with fault finding and defense"---WOW----I looked at it as sharing info---in a polite way, also. I've always invited new, worthy perspectives from people. But thats me. Go back and look at my post to you, then look at yours under it....was I being argumentive? WOW...sorry you took it that way

 

And, if I hear something that makes sense, i'm better for it, if I don't, I leave it there----"take what you can use and leave the rest" with the internet.

 

 

If you think there is not "more" to the story on what went on with the feds vs. the Klumps, fine---that is your belief. I trust the MANY people that I know in the area that shared info with me---and it was very enlightening to here all sides of the story.

I guess you look at it as I was "defending" the klumps----No, I think in a nutshell, I was pointing to there being "2 sides" to it----years ago I thought they were "bad guys" too. As a hunter, and its potential impact on me, I was quick to believe that.

Are they innocent angels? I doubt it---none of us are---but I do understand them better now.

 

Thanks for the 'good luck' on my hunt-----I will be going to the exact same place I've gone for the last 5 years, and had great success.

And I wish you luck too----there is at least ONE big Coues buck back in there, I saw him last Jan.(yes, I "wandered" off my property for a long hike--I was "trespassing")---but as I said before, all i see on my land and on the way there is Mulies, bummer----hope you have a great time---thats what its all about

[SunDevil]

Oh Dave, I suppose your right. About one thing. Maybe tax dollars didn't pay for the majority of these roads. But your definetly wrong about another and that is telling me not to share my opinion. If you go back to my original post you will see that all I was doing was providing information. Then you chimned in with your CAPS flying, started blaming the FEDS, defending the Klumps and all the other ranchers who lock gates to public roads. I don't think it is appropriate for you to be using this forum to be telling me what to do.

 

As for the thing you are right about, in the instance of the Dos Cabezas, please don't try and tell me that the Klumps paid for that road. The Klumps are not miners and most of those roads lead to mine shafts. They also are not in the radio tower business and the remainder of the roads were pushed up to the top to install those towers that are up there. Like I said, as far as the Dos Cabezas goes, they own a little bit of land here and a little bit of land there and the road goes through a little bit of their land at the bottom and because of that they can lock it up. It's a bunch of crap.

 

So using your logic, I buy a ranch that borders state, blm or FS land. There is a public road that leads through my property back to the public property. The previous owner left it open for everyone to use but guess what, I don't like people driving through my private land so I throw a lock on the gate. I didn't pay for the road but legally I can lock the gate until the government proves the road was there before my land was privately owned. Who knows how long it will take them to exert the time, money and resources to prove that. In the mean time, my good ole buddies and I have our own personal and private access to all the public land bordering my ranch we want. Oh and I forgot, no matter how nice you are when you call to ask for access through my locked gate, I will tell you to go pound sand. The scenario might be legal but it is still wrong. Unfortunately, it appears that in your world there is nothing wrong with it though. To bad.

 

Like I said, hopefully you will not run into any locked gates when you are trying to access and enjoy our wonderful state.

[JVS]

Trust me when I say the Klumps are nice people for the most part, but watch it if you cross them in any way...you might end up like the Klump wife that disappeared...??? Anyone know the details of that one? I wouldn't try and pull a fast one on them. They have been known to break any and every rule in the book and justify their actions with the hard and fast rules of the wild west (which some of the Klumps still live in).

[AZcoues_addict]

I had no idea so many people have dealt with the same issues my family has faced for the last eight years or so. In fact, my family has hunted in 30A for 30 years, and we do own a small piece of land there and have established many good people. For the most part, I agree with Sun Devil and the basic issue of locking gates to public land, it drives me crazy and I've walked that road many times to the top. In fact, as I understand it, the road used to be public access over the mountain to Bowie at one time, although this is definitely not how or why it was created.

 

I consulted in person with Josh Avey, head of the landowner relations at the G&F office here in Phoenix about this same issue a few years ago, Skeleton Canyon more recently, and many others in the Southern part of our state. As I understand it the gate remains closed NOT due to creation of the road, but to maintainence of the road. The county has to "prove" that the road is regularly maintained, while the judge is to determine the evidence and decide if it is "regularly" maintained or not. You and I both know that some of these roads, depending on the precipitation and year, do not need maintenance every year, and due to this fact it may not be deemed a publicly maintained road. So what if the judge had grown up with the defendent in a small town or not, even when those who drove the plow for the county were testifying? Not a maintained road, right, or wait maybe not?

 

All of these cloudy issues make one wonder about our access to public lands in the future if we don't do something now. The wording to these laws can be interpreted differently depending on the judge. For this reason, I wrote a letter to our governor stating my recommendation that these type of issues be addressed. We as outdoor enthusiasts, need to group together and think of a solution to these types of issues, especially with the amount of land being locked off every year. Since a large number of the roads here in Arizona were created by miners, ranchers, etc., we need some type of grandfathered law that specifically applies to maintain access to our public lands, since it is through these roads that we and others have always had acces. I'm not just talking about hunting, but camping, sight-seeing, bird watching, taking a drive with the family, you name it; the types of people who selfishly lock a gate are hurting THOUSANDS when public land is involved, and even more when you think of the long-long-term. The part that really angers me the most though is that these same individuals privately "select" those who can and cannot have access, and in turn have there own private, public land! Talk about a conflict!

 

Personally I do not care who created the road, but IMO if it has always allowed public access or if public dollars were ever invested in maintaining it, I feel everyone should have access. With that said, I don't deny that we should also seriously address private land rights as well, maybe even monetary assistance to post private land boundaries, creatively think of ways to prevent trespassing, or even funding to create roads around certain private lands as a last resort. We need to voice our needs and concerns, and allow lawmakers to put their heads together in solving this issue, instead of just saying its private land so I'll lock a gate forever! All we're doing is hurting our sport, and more importantly our children's opportunities and access to public lands, not just for hunting either but for all types of outdoor activities.

[scoutm]

AZcoues_addict - well stated. In all these posts there is a point that has not been touched on - the same ranchers who are locking gates are leasing these public lands for personal/private gain. This much in part to the fact the land leases are at rates well below the value of the land use. I have oftened thought as a condition of their public land leases they should be required to provide the public access to the public land they are leasing.

[onlycoues]

Longshot,

 

I pulled a tag in for 30a december whitetail, I love this area but I usually hunt skelton canyon, but it is locked out this year so im not sure what im going to do either

[ghost hunter]

While I won't debate the "whose road is it", I have always thought, and every chance I get, tell G&F that the public land owners (FS, BLM, St Land) need to get together and remind the ranchers just who is driving the train, or in this case, it shouldn't be 'the tail wagging the dog.' Their rule should be simple, like "No access, No lease."

[Idahocoueshunter]

The way I understand it is that the road was built in the 20's to the Mascot Mine, a pattented mining claim that the Klumps own today. The rest of the road, used to go acorss the Mascot Saddle into the Alma mine in Buckeye Canyon, that I believe the Klumps now own as well. The road from the saddle to the towers was built by a private company who installed the radio towers, and uses the road to maintain them. I too have run into people who have a key to the gate that were neither Klumps or radio techs. I have spoken with the Cochise County Under Sheriff hunting up there. I would think if it were a county road, he would not have had to walk from the bottom.

 

The bottom line is that a Judge said the road can and will be locked, end of story until that decision is overturned.

 

My grandfather and father have hunted those mountains for decades. This is my understanding from what they have told me, and may or not be accurate.

 

 

Craig.

[billrquimby]

The feds definitely did not start the flap with the Klumps. I was among the newsmen who reported on the situation at the time.

 

The Klumps' problems began when they sent the U.S. Forest Serve, BLM, State Land Department, and the Arizona Game and Fish Department an arrogant letter declaring that because the family had leased government land for XX number years the land --" from the center of the earth to the clouds in the sky"-- now belonged to them.

 

Next, they blocked paved and gravel public roads with their fences, poured cattle into the land they illegally claimed, and announced that anyone, including state and federal employees, entered at his own risk. At least one group of hunters claimed shots were fired when they tried to enter state land.

 

The land agencies responded with a joint operation that rounded up the Klumps' cattle found to be in trespass on public land -- there were considerably more cows than their leases allowed them -- and selling them.

 

It was the only such roundup of trespassing cattle I've ever heard of in my 70 years in Arizona.

 

Although this has nothing to do with the situation in the Dos Cabezas, one of the younger Klumps from an area north of Willcox was being investigated about the same time by AGFD and USFWS for killing a jaguar, and later guiding undercover agents on illegal hunts for bears, desert sheep, and javelinas. The fact that the agent shot a ram was too much for the judge, however, and he threw out the case, saying the officers had gone too far.

 

 

Bill Quimby

[JVS]

Hey Bill,

 

Did you cover the story ~15-20 years ago?

[azfulldraw]

My grandfather worked on a dozer for the FS & BLM pushing in most of the twotrack roads in unit 31 and 28 to these windmills and dirt tanks that are on so called privet property(actully on FS & BLM land). He past away some years ago and we were going through some of his old maps. I found out 95% of the locked gates in these units were built by GOV money and he pushed them all in. If you need proof I can tell on what date the roads where put in and how many hours were spent pushing them.

 

I do thing that there are some hunters out there that screw things up for the rest of use thinking that they can do whatever they want whenevere they want!!