Ward's Outfitters 2013 Starting Out Great.

[Coues79]

I make my living doing other things than outfitting. I have 3 kids that I put food on the table for. I bust my butt and work late into the evening. One of my favorite units to hunt down south during December archery season got taken away because the success rate for the archery hunts got too high. Seems to be reason to be concerned IMO.

 

Read between the lines. He isn't bashing. Its common sense. Success rates like that limit other folks that can hunt during those times when the game and fish regulate archery hunting. So he makes a living outfitting; great! Don't bag on a guy that is trying to show the possibilities that can come from so many archery deer kills. One of the units he hunts which is the same unit the outfitter hunts just got the December hunt taken away. Keep killing high numbers of deer and it'll get turned into a draw archery unit. Geez. Makes some kinda sense there don't you think? Maybe kinda self regulate or you just might end up running a business into the ground.

The closed mindedness of folks is what irks me. A guy has the right to disagree and it don't look like he did it in a nasty way either.

[singleshot]

Thats absolutely right, we lost the December hunt in 29 because of the high archery success ratio. Wards is caught between a rock and a hard place, mandatory reporting, promoting his business etc. If the hunt does go to a draw it will also have a non resident cap at 10% right? Thats going to hurt. With the high archery success rates the draw tags will be limited.

In the long run about all we can do is pray for RAIN. All the management in the world isn't going to do diddly squat without moisture.

[desertbowhunter]

I make my living doing other things than outfitting. I have 3 kids that I put food on the table for. I bust my butt and work late into the evening. One of my favorite units to hunt down south during December archery season got taken away because the success rate for the archery hunts got too high. Seems to be reason to be concerned IMO.

Read between the lines. He isn't bashing. Its common sense. Success rates like that limit other folks that can hunt during those times when the game and fish regulate archery hunting. So he makes a living outfitting; great! Don't bag on a guy that is trying to show the possibilities that can come from so many archery deer kills. One of the units he hunts which is the same unit the outfitter hunts just got the December hunt taken away. Keep killing high numbers of deer and it'll get turned into a draw archery unit. Geez. Makes some kinda sense there don't you think? Maybe kinda self regulate or you just might end up running a business into the ground.

The closed mindedness of folks is what irks me. A guy has the right to disagree and it don't look like he did it in a nasty way either.

Yeah and you probably have a 1000 yard gun and can shoot a deer at 120 yards with your bow just like everyone else that hunts nowadays huh. You probably have a lot of expensive optics and are a heck of a glasser to huh. I guess we are all apart of the problem, maybe you should read between the lines. Hunters are evolving and success rates will continue to rise!

 

 

 

 

[mace]

Desertbowhunter the reason that I posted was because Steven was bashing a guy for simply stating that maybe the bait ban would hurt...then a couple of the other followers dumped on him as well. So he is an outfitter? Big deal. He has no more right than you or I do. My whole point in this is that without some self regulation we are going to lose hunting oppurtunity. I guided hunts for several years and quit because I would rather spend that time hunting for myself and my family. It always gets messy when money gets involved in anything. A guy that loves hunting can end up hurting the sport we all love because he feels like he has to continue to book very large amounts of clients and then look for every single advantage,even baiting. IMO baiting deer should be banned completely, think Ive made that clear enough. I also havent what I would call "bash" anyone YET....I didnt call someone a coward or a DA, Steven and someone rlse did that, I am simply a guy that has hunted since I could hold a BB gun and absolutely love the liberal amount of time we are presently given to bow hunt here in AZ. Do you people really not believe that the G&F will havr any choice but to change their policy on OTC tags if the numbers he is promoting continues?! Come on. And since he has made the choice to outfit as a career then maybe those of us that hunt for other reasons should forfeit our tags so that he can book more clients? That must be what you mean right?

[Coues79]

Hey Desert,

 

Good to have dialogue; Discussion is how things are taken care of. But, one of the most important things is to not get hasty and start slinging mud. Let's not assume what I do or do not have as it's irrelevant and absolutely has zero room in this discussion. What has been proposed to this discussion is for longevity of archery hunting opportunity in units that have low deer numbers and high archery success rates, which in turn, due to AZGFD policy dictates how archery hunting can or cannot exist.

 

A unit was closed to Archery deer hunting in December because of those high rates of success. This, in turn, results in lost opportunity for not only myself and anyone that wants to hunt unit 29 archery december, but also to the outfitter himself; this is fact, not speculation.

 

A cause for concern as to high success rates in these units, in which one or two outfitters can have tremendous success, leads to ask the question, where is the self-regulation and will the high success rates mean that a draw system for those units are immenent, which in turn will lead to the outfitter excluding his or herself from hunting that unit in the future? My opportunity to hunt December 29 archery is gone now, so is it likely that too much success in a deer deprived unit could turn it into a draw unit for Archery?

 

It's a deeper question that can't simply be shunned as ridiculousness or trying to bag on an outfitter. Remember, the majority of hunters do not hunt with an outfitter. It's a deeper question. Think about it.

[desertbowhunter]

Coues 79 and mace,

I see where you guys are coming from. One of my favorite archery units was closed for December also. I to love the long liberal archery deer seasons. But all I'm saying it's only a matter of time before OTC deer goes to a draw in all units. Or maybe at least for the rut hunts. With the advanced archery equipment,optics and laser rangefinders we have, success rates will continue to rise. So what is putting a ban on baiting going to do? Whats next a ban on high powered optics? Because I know if I didn't glass with top of line optics I wouldn't see half the game I do now. All I'm trying to get at is why should we judge someone by the way they hunt? Some guys still hunt,some sit water/bait, and some glass there butts off. Or maybe they do a little of everything. What's the difference in sitting water as to sitting over bait? Should waterhole hunting be banned also? I'm not here to make enemies or piss people off, I'm just trying to understand why someone would be upset over success in the field. That is the goal when we set out on our hunting adventures right? It's AZGFD's to regulate harvest objectives right? The Game&Fish is going to do what they want to do anyways so why not just be happy for success either way, whether it's outfitter or DIY guys.

[mace]

The difference is baiting is not legal. This whole thing began because Steven got pissy because someone asked him if the baiting ban was going to hurt his success rates. He responded by calling him a coward and saying that baiting has almost nothing to do with his success but, by the way he has been working on a new "salt based bait" that as he understands it should be legal under the new law. It was extremely hard for me to believe that baiting was not a large part of his operation, and ultimately his success rates, so I called him on it. As you stated, success numbers have increased, but nowhere near the numbers he is posting. Of all of the "advantages" you listed, none of them compare to baiting except maybe sitting water IMO. The big difference is that sitting water has always been legal....this whole thing just rubs me because of the loss of oppurtunity for someones personal gain and make no mistake that is what it is. Im still just so hung up on why, if baiting isnt something that tremendously swings the odds, would anyone invest so much effort into trying to find a loophole in the law with his new bait? As I said before, it will be so intersting to see all of the G&F bashing on this site when the draw comes and we lose something so incredible.

[desertbowhunter]

Alright I'm done. You've made some good points and I respect your opinion. I hope you draw your dream elk or antelope tag, good luck.

[mace]

Thank you bowhunter and same to you. Good luck in the draws!!

[CouesWhitetail]

I think the idea that we should all try to be as unsuccesful as possible so that we can save opportunity for all is ludicrous. Congratulations Steven on your success. I am sure your hunters are very happy with their opportunity and their success. People hire guides to make them more successful, and it makes no sense to me to bash a guide for being successful as long as he is employing legal means of hunting. Based on Steven's success this year it's obvious to me that he can help his clients kill deer with or without bait.

[Coues79]

I think the idea that we should all try to be as unsuccesful as possible so that we can save opportunity for all is ludicrous. Congratulations Steven on your success. I am sure your hunters are very happy with their opportunity and their success. People hire guides to make them more successful, and it makes no sense to me to bash a guide for being successful as long as he is employing legal means of hunting. Based on Steven's success this year it's obvious to me that he can help his clients kill deer with or without bait.

Which is completely your opinion that you are warranted to feel..... isn't discussion great!

[mace]

Amanda, noone talked about trying to be unsuccessful, and the point of legal hunting is exactly my point. Trying to invent a bait to circumvent the law brings into question the integrity of an individual does it not? I know sponsors are important to this site so no surprise that I cant call BS here but I would challenge evwryone to think about whats taking place here and think of what the outcome of this topic is going to be. You know as well as I do we are going to lose here because certain people are more interested in making money than being responsible. Sorry but thats my opinion.

[bonecollector]

How is making a salt based bait circumventing the law?

[wardsoutfitters]

Amanda, noone talked about trying to be unsuccessful, and the point of legal hunting is exactly my point. Trying to invent a bait to circumvent the law brings into question the integrity of an individual does it not? I know sponsors are important to this site so no surprise that I cant call BS here but I would challenge evwryone to think about whats taking place here and think of what the outcome of this topic is going to be. You know as well as I do we are going to lose here because certain people are more interested in making money than being responsible. Sorry but thats my opinion.

Mace

First if you implying that I am breaking the law you are sadly mistaken. I at no time in the 10 years of outfitting have broken one law in my business and despise the fact that you are implying that. You need to understand that baiting deer has never been illegal. And at this point it still isn’t!!! You and a few others keep referring to unit 29 and the lack of deer. The deer numbers are still high you just need to go find them!!!!! If you look at the deer harvest numbers and check the facts from the past two years you would see that Ward's Outfitters in 2011, 2012 only harvested 23 Coues Deer in 29. We hunt 29,30a,30b,31,32,33,35a,34a,36,a,b,c. The hunts didn’t get closed down because of us, the got closed because it's mandatory for archers to report harvests and the department bases their decisions based on that, did you know they don’t separate mule deer harvests from Coues deer harvests in these units for archers?? they will never mandate gun hunters to report because they would then have to shut down gun hunts, if you don’t believe that I feel for you. If deer numbers are down then why does the department keep raising tag allocations????? If they listened to their biologists they would then be managing our herds and not hunters. Mace you cannot tell me you agree with every single decision the department’s makes, Like issuing so many unit 31 December Coues deer tags??? I respect your opinion, and you are in tilted to it . but with that said I would never bash any means of hunting any hunter uses if it is legal…. It’s the lack of togetherness on all hunters part that will ultimately destroy our sport. May god bless you and everyone else on this site and lets hope we all draw our elk and antelope tags.

[mace]

Never said I couldnt find deer Steven, I am quite capable thank you. Is what I did state was that the numbers are way down. Its obvious that you have alot of heartburn with G&F and like I said I dont quite understand that but oh well. I never said spwcifically unit 29, but it is an example of what is going to happen to our bowhunting oppurunities, only it will end up having to draw,IMO, if things keep going the way they are.