azgfd survey

[dustyb0]

Bill consider that many of us dont have the money to hunt in mexio or orther states,africa,auction tags,etc. A dec. deer tag or sept archery elk tag is our ultimate hunting oppertunity.We have and will wait years for that opp.,we just want a quality hunt.I know you have had many and thats great.I sure dont see the declining #s each year when we apply.

[DesertBull]

I think we have a good mix of opportunity and quality hunts right now. It was better before they messed with the 20's units Coues hunts, but that's ok.

 

What they really want to do, I am afraid, is to cut WAYYY back on the archery elk hunts in Sept and move them to November.

 

Now, I'll bet most people who aspire to archery hunt elk would glady wait 5-8 years or more for a chance to do it in September than to hunt every year in November.

 

Plus, it just looks bad when they come out with an agenda of issuing more and more tags when the the deer numbers are down and they just came out with a large fee increase. It makes it seem like a money grab, even if it is not.

[billrquimby]

Guys.

 

I have killed a lot of deer, and to me a "quality" deer hunt is anytime I have a tag in my pocket. I don't want any guarantees that I will kill a super buck but I do want a chance to go hunting. If I see only heat waves in October, I can't blame anyone but my own inadequacy as a hunter. The deer are out there, or else you guys wouldn't stand in line for those last-season tags.

 

I'm not saying that the rut hunts should be eliminated, or even reduced drastically. What I am saying that something needs to be done to allow more people a chance to go hunting without adversely affecting our deer herds. I don't care how it's done. Perhaps permits ought to be increased in areas where hunt success exceeds a certain percentage, say 25%, which should tell us that are an adequate number of bucks in that unit. I'd be happy to have a 1 in 4 chance to kill a buck, especially when I know only about 10 percent of us know how to find and kill a deer consistently.

 

As for the recent AZGFD survey, polling everyone who provided an e-mail address with his/her application definitely WILL provide a genuinely random sample (although the number of participants will be higher than it needs to be) of the population of wanna-be deer hunters, and should yield acceptable accuracy if the questions are appropriate.

 

Bill Quimby

[ronaldo]

Bill consider that many of us dont have the money to hunt in mexio or orther states,africa,auction tags,etc. A dec. deer tag or sept archery elk tag is our ultimate hunting oppertunity.We have and will wait years for that opp.,we just want a quality hunt.I know you have had many and thats great.I sure dont see the declining #s each year when we apply.

 

 

 

Amen!! It all comes down to whos got the most money and always will...People who go on these high dollar hunts dont care about how many tags the az game and fish issue. they;ll just go hunt on a private ranch and say to heck with it. the avearge working joe cant afford that stuff so we'll be stuck hoping for a november archery bull tag or oct rifle deer tag..That stinks....

I have said it before... its all about the money....

Ron

[couesdiehard]

Mr. Quimby,

I personally am upset at the thought of taking away opportunity for a special hunt so that more people can hunt at times that I consider less special. Sir if you consider a "rut bull elk hunt" to be the same as November general bull hunt with 10-15 times as many hunters, I have to disagree. If you consider a Dec. WT hunt in say 36B to be the same as an Oct. WT hunt in the same unit with 5-10 times as many hunters then again I have to disagree. I work harder than most anyone I know to get drawn because I love to hunt and I am happy hunting during any season I get drawn for, but I want to continue to have a real chance at getting drawn for a higher quality hunt every few years. I may not be a hunter of your caliber but I love the experience of being on a hunt while the bulls or bucks are rutting, whether I tag anything or not! If you believe selling more tags to deer hunters in Oct will increase hunter numbers in the long run you are mistaken, in my opinion. Game & Fish will be adding "more hunter opportunities" (surveyor no survey)so we are going to see in the long run if you are correct about the increase in hunter numbers. Thank you for asking for my opinion.

Lee

[billrquimby]

Ron and Lee:

 

I guess I shouldn't care about the future of hunting. My daughter and grandson have no interest in it, and with my health status at age 70 I have only two or three years at most that I will be able to hunt. I don't mind that I might not draw another permit. My occupation has allowed me to do more hunting in more places than most people. However, my entire life as an outdoor writer/editor/author has been spent promoting hunting and attempting to keep the tradition alive and well, and I'll be damned if I will stop now.

 

Whether you realize it or not, we hunters are at war. There are many millions of people who want all hunting stopped, and their numbers grow each year. Don't expect our game department, or those in the other 49 states, to stand up for us when there is a serious, well-financed and well-planned campaign to ban what we do. Bureaucracies have one mission, and that is to survive. The only way we will win is with numbers.

 

A mere 40,000 deer hunters in a state as large as Arizona will not have the political clout to win sustained battles in a legislature comprised of politicians who stick their fingers up to see which way the wind blows.

 

First we will lose the hunts with the fewest participants -- bison, sheep, lion and bear, for example. The anti-hunters' next target could be bowhunting or muzzleloading. Just as happened with trapping, the majority of selfish and short-sighted individuals in our group will say, "Why should I care? I don't hunt lions or bears" or "I don't use muzzleloaders or bows."

 

Our enemies have been quiet for the past few years but they have not gone away.

 

What you guys should be up in arms about is the loss of access in Arizona. Every time the Forest Service, State Land Department or BLM closes a two-track road or a landowner locks a gate on a road that crosses his narrow strip of private land, hunter distribution is affected. Eventually, there are only one or two roads providing access into an entire mountain range.

 

When this happens, a wildlife manager drives up the only remaining roads, sees all the camps of hunters, and decides there are just too many people in "his" unit and recommends a reduction in tags the next year. It doesn't matter how many deer are over the next ridge, permit numbers will be based on the number of parking spaces.

 

I won't be around to see what's coming, but just remember I told you so.

 

Bill Quimby

[billrquimby]

http://www.maineguides.org/referendum/anti...er_quotes.shtml

[couesdiehard]

Mr. Quimby,

Again you have stated your point well and I stand beside you in our fight to continue hunting as a tradition for future generations. I may be just a little more stubborn than you in that I want to keep hunting as I know it or improve upon it. I feel that if G & F issues 60,000 deer permits with 95% of the tags being for Oct and Nov hunts and with little to know chance of getting drawn for a Dec hunt occassionally we lose a large part of the tradition. You and I and folks like us will hunt until the day we die. If you want to discourage those that aren't as passionate (yet) you do one of two things: make it difficult for them to even have a chance to hunt, or make the experience as unsatisfying as possible. Crowding too many hunters in an area for one hunt that can be tough anyway will discourage many right out of the gate. I can hear these folks now who complain, " I never get drawn even for deer in Arizona." Their phrase will turn into, " I am not going to hunt anymore because even if you get drawn you can't find a deer for all the people stepping on each other." They will cease to apply anymore and then we have lost. The hunt is all about the experience, not about bagging an animal.

Mr. Quimby I have a lot of respect for your opinion and I thank you for the opportunity to compare our opinions. Always a pleasure sir.

Lee

[az4life]

Wowiee...

Bill,

I understand, but do not agree with your opinion on this one. The poor management by the department has made them more of a political group than they ever have been. When they started to worry more about politics, it was the beginning of the end for the quality hunting on open land in AZ.

 

The AGFD has an agenda and have repeatedly and consistently shown they will run over hunters and game unit managers to meet their own goals. Like others have stated, they have skewed and "loaded" surveys, to paint the picture that suits their own agenda. And instead of finding value and merit in using surveys taken by quality concerned hunter groups (like ADA ) using AGFD guidleines, they are dismissed as not scientific or random, Whatever suits them is the rule that has won out.

 

The quality and quantity of big game in the state has greatly diminished in the last 10 years. We have more hunters, yes and we all have to share less tags because of poor predator and range management. So now, Tags counts diminished and we adjust our expectations. When we have been drawn the hunt quality has for the most part not suffered. Selling a bunch of tags in Late summer, early fall in AZ is just stupid since if we do harvest an animal in any place other than road hunting, there is little chance of saving the meat in near 100 degree temps. Not what I would call responsible hunting.

 

There were lots of other ideas for the dept to increase opportunity without alienating their core supporters. Bullheadedly they chose to stay the course they chose. Well, in 5 years I would like to see what good it has done. Americans overall have short memories for major events like this. Well, in 5 years I would like to see what good it has done. Probably will be a lot of hunters wishing for the "good old days" when there were prime tags for USO to try to steal from AZ hunters who cared.

 

I have lived here all my life and can respect that your experience in hunting far outweighs mine. It seems that you have fought the good fight for hunting and hunters over the years and I Do respect that. however.... I would guess your perspective has changed from your younger days.

 

Like you I will likely not hunt in AZ much in the future. This saddens me that what once was a great state for Game, is but a shodow of it's former glory. Hunting for me will continue in other places more "western" in their way of thinking and game management plans.

 

To those who stand for what AZ hunting should be, May you Fight the Good Fight and don't give in until you win!

 

God Bless!

[billrquimby]

"You are right about AZGFD getting these herds to their present status, which is horrible. They have screwed up hunting in this state so bad it is sick. I dont think the present status of the herds is anything to brag about. Just talk to anyone who hunted this state 20 years ago. It is sad to see what has happended. "

 

Dear 300wsm:

 

I shot my first deer in Arizona in 1948 ... that's 58 years ago. Does that count?

 

I have hunted in this state every year that I have drawn a tag, and have seldom missed taking a buck. On the years I did not draw (such as this year) I have scouted and helped others get their game. I can tell you that our elk herds here in the White Mountains have never been healthier.

 

Mule deer are a different story. Their numbers declined as elk numbers exploded. I can remember the days we could see 50 to 150 deer, just by driving from Greer to the Black River via Big Lake. If we saw one elk, we'd mark the date on our calendars. Today, on a good morning in midweek, I can show you 500 to 700 elk, sometimes more, on the same trip. Five years ago the odds were we wouldn't have seen a single mule deer. Today they seem to be rebounding slightly because I seldom go out without seeing two or three.

 

I may be more experienced at finding whitetails now, but when I was in college 50 years ago I felt lucky to find a buck in three of days of hard hunting. Today, even in October, I usualy can find at least one a day ... and sometimes a lot more.

 

The good ol' days are today, as you will discover when you reach my age.

 

Bill Quimby

[Buckhorn]

"The good ol' days are today, as you will discover when you reach my age."

 

 

Well Said Bill. Seems like every year that goes bye your quote rings true.

 

Buckhorn

[azryan]

you all are talking about being drawn....what do you think is gonna happen to our over the counter tags...Are they gonna get rid of them or are they gonna keep it going?

[audsley]

I'm having lots of trouble with all this.

 

I've hunted deer with a rifle every year except two since 1981. The two years I didn't hunt were my fault. One was a careless application error and the other was pushing my luck by making Dec. WT my 1st and 2nd choices in the late 1990s assuming I could always get a Nov. tag on a 3rd choice. It's not hard to get a deer tag if you'll take what is obtainable.

 

Now if you really must have a mule deer tag, then I guess you do have a problem. But I can't feel too sorry for you. There's always bowhunting, and that's a much more interesting hunt anyway. You're out there during the rut when the leaves are gone, and you'll see more animals then than at any other time of year. Success for bowhunters in southern Arizona units is usually in the 3 to 6 per cent range, but they're fun hunts. You won't see a ton of other camps and hunters, and you can take along a shotgun and mix in other types of hunting. You just have to adapt to the opportunities that are there instead of sitting home complaining that you didn't get drawn again for that low-odds tag.

 

Now let's talk elk. If you just have to be up in there in the rut and seeing tons of elk and big bulls running around, put in for an archery cow tag as a second choice. Cow hunting is still elk hunting and good for practice and experience. Furthermore, cows taste much, much better than bulls and you still get some of the excitement of the rut and seeing and hearing those big bulls. When you finally get your bull tag, you'll be a much more experienced elk hunter and far more likely to get that big bull you've dreamed of.

 

Now let's talk access. Of you guys who spent all this time typing on this forum about how you're getting screwed out of quality hunts, how many have bothered to fill out the roadless rule survey on the Game & Fish website? This is a potential threat to your access that could leave you stacked up with a jillion other hunters on the few roads that are left open to hunters. The environmental community believes roads are the root of all evils and wants to close a lot of the forest service roads. If you look on the map on AG&F's website, you will notice that the Tumacacoris are shown as being largely in a roadless area and that the road connecting Sopori Ranch with the I-19 area is not shown. Does that mean this road will be closed? (The enviros want to make this area a Wilderness, so don't be surprised if that road gets closed.)

 

And what about some other roads that are shown in the roadless areas? Will these be closed? We all need to be asking those kinds of questions.

 

The national forest is currently working on a revised forest plan including a travel management plan. This could result in some road closures. Any of you guys been to any of the public meetings? If so, I was the angry guy you saw and heard kicking a$$ and taking names for hunter access, and you guys must have been the quiet ones that sat in the corner listening politely while enviros talked about how we need to close more roads and turn more of the forest into Wilderness.

 

Now let's talk game populations. AG&F's long term target for elk populations on state-managed lands is 25,000 animals. At last March's Commission meeting (I took a half day off work, don't think I saw you guys there), the dept. reported that the current population is 16,000 to 17,000 elk, or about 2/3 of the target population. Why? What's being done about it? To their credit, the Commissioners noted the discrepancy and said it will be addressed next year. Presumably this means raising elk herd numbers, not lowering the target, but wait til the meeting is in Payson and the ranchers attend and tell them there still too many elk, more cow tags should be issued. I believe that's how our elk numbers declined in the first place - rancher appeasement while hunters were busy worrying that some out-of-state guy was going to get their elk tag.

 

Arizona's hunters are like frogs slowly boiling in a pot and scarcely noticing it's starting to get warm. Their attention can be gained if somebody messes directly with their hunts or tag opportunities, such as the George Taulman/US Outfitters affair or AG&F increasing tag numbers, but major underlying issues that determine opportunity seemd to go unnoticed.

 

Sorry, but I've had it. You people get worked up over the wrong things.

 

Larry Audsley

[dave]

The best way to increase opportunity is to increase animal numbers.

 

As Audsley said, at the hunt set meeting in April the Department told the Commission that we have approximatly 17,000 head of elk. The model is 25,000. From what the Director had to say, I believe the Department wants to lower the model so they do not have to deal with as many issues from ranchers. So what exactly did the Commission do that day.

 

1. They ignored the model.

 

2. They issued all the cow tags the Department asked for.

 

A responsible Commission would have cut more cow tags on that day.

 

How is this showing us that they care about wildlife?

 

How is this showing us they truly want to create opportunity for years to come.

 

Sorry to tell you this Audsley but they want to lower the model.

[az4life]

If the "model" does not fit their current plans, they just ignore it or at last resort they would say that it was unrealistic or in error. Either way, they get little if any challenge and do what they want to.