Final wording for the Bait Ban

[1denogean]

I don't understand your confusion. Mineral blocks would be allowed because they are designed for the livestock industry. Mineral blocks are considered a "salt-based" product, not pure salt. Anything that is salt-based but not pure salt must be designed for the livestock industry. If it is, then you can use it.

Thanks amanda im just over thinking this

[JLW]

All:

 

I know this is a bit confusing, and I'm not the last word on this topic, but if you look at the final rule language it does try to provide clarity. Any time I read any legal contract, I'm amazed at how unclear it is in the process of keeping the legal profession afloat. The last time I rented a car, I think I signed my name more often than when I bought my first house. Nevertheless, in this instance:

 

The rule specific exempts salt. It doesn't say that salt has to be for the livestock industry, but any type of salt is ok. If it is table salt, it is salt. If it is water softener salt, it is salt.

 

If it is a salt-based product, then it has to be manufactored for the livestock industry. Mineral licks fall into this category.

 

Finally, if it is a nutritional supplement that is not a salt-based product for the livestock industry or plain old salt, then it must be placed in the process of the agricultural operation. You can hunt over a molasses wheel if the livestock producer put it out for his cattle.

 

This was intended to to balance the risks associated with disease transmission and methods that are already in use or practiced for many decades. Salt is quite prevalent on the landscape. Adding more salt simply reduces any concentrations already in existence and already in use. Water and salt are naturallyl occurring. Other baits are not.

 

I hope this offers some help in interpreting the final rules adopted by the Commission.

 

Brian Wakeling

Game Branch Chief

might be a dumb question but this is what i dont understand

 

 

if it's pure salt, it's fine. If there are additives like other minerals or attractants, then it has to be designed for livestock industry. A mineral block is different from a salt block. I think the intent of this wording is to not allow things like deer cane or other products with additives designed to specifically attract deer. Maybe Brian will come and clarify.

thanks amanda i just think the two sentances contradict themselves just because

 

The rule specific exempts salt. It doesn't say that salt has to be for the livestock industry, but any type of salt is ok. If it is table salt, it is salt. If it is water softener salt, it is salt.

 

If it is a salt-based product, then it has to be manufactored for the livestock industry. Mineral licks fall into this category.

 

mineral licks are designed for the livestock industry such as trace mineral thats what i am trying to understand

 

 

I don't understand your confusion. Mineral blocks would be allowed because they are designed for the livestock industry. Mineral blocks are considered a "salt-based" product, not pure salt. Anything that is salt-based but not pure salt must be designed for the livestock industry. If it is, then you can use it.

wording says Nutritional supplements produced and manufactured for the livestock industry and placed during the course of livestock or agricultural operations.

placed during the course of livestock or agricultural operations.... I don't think average joe hunter can place these unless they are put out for the cattle..... but if the rancher puts it out for his cattle be it alfalfa, molasses, mineral block, corn, steak and eggs, chicken parmesan or whatever they put out you can hunt over it as long as it was put there by the rancher/ranch hands for the cattle.

 

James

[Perkele!]

Quote :

 

I don't think average joe hunter can place these unless they are put out for the cattle..... but if the rancher puts it out for his cattle be it alfalfa, molasses, mineral block, corn, steak and eggs, chicken parmesan or whatever they put out you can hunt over it as long as it was put there by the rancher/ranch hands for the cattle.

 

Unquote.

 

 

I think we should get friendlier with the ranchers. IMHO the ranchers would appreciate steak and eggs and chicken parmesan more than the livestock.

 

Seriously, the verbage is not very confusing, however I see some loopholes, especially the part mentioning water usage etc etc, what guarantee do we as hunters have that GFD isn't going to claim that trail cams are scaring away wildlife or human activity around tanks isn't shying away wildlife ?

[CouesWhitetail]

All:

 

I know this is a bit confusing, and I'm not the last word on this topic, but if you look at the final rule language it does try to provide clarity. Any time I read any legal contract, I'm amazed at how unclear it is in the process of keeping the legal profession afloat. The last time I rented a car, I think I signed my name more often than when I bought my first house. Nevertheless, in this instance:

 

The rule specific exempts salt. It doesn't say that salt has to be for the livestock industry, but any type of salt is ok. If it is table salt, it is salt. If it is water softener salt, it is salt.

 

If it is a salt-based product, then it has to be manufactored for the livestock industry. Mineral licks fall into this category.

 

Finally, if it is a nutritional supplement that is not a salt-based product for the livestock industry or plain old salt, then it must be placed in the process of the agricultural operation. You can hunt over a molasses wheel if the livestock producer put it out for his cattle.

 

This was intended to to balance the risks associated with disease transmission and methods that are already in use or practiced for many decades. Salt is quite prevalent on the landscape. Adding more salt simply reduces any concentrations already in existence and already in use. Water and salt are naturallyl occurring. Other baits are not.

 

I hope this offers some help in interpreting the final rules adopted by the Commission.

 

Brian Wakeling

Game Branch Chief

might be a dumb question but this is what i dont understand

 

 

if it's pure salt, it's fine. If there are additives like other minerals or attractants, then it has to be designed for livestock industry. A mineral block is different from a salt block. I think the intent of this wording is to not allow things like deer cane or other products with additives designed to specifically attract deer. Maybe Brian will come and clarify.

thanks amanda i just think the two sentances contradict themselves just because

 

The rule specific exempts salt. It doesn't say that salt has to be for the livestock industry, but any type of salt is ok. If it is table salt, it is salt. If it is water softener salt, it is salt.

 

If it is a salt-based product, then it has to be manufactored for the livestock industry. Mineral licks fall into this category.

 

mineral licks are designed for the livestock industry such as trace mineral thats what i am trying to understand

 

 

I don't understand your confusion. Mineral blocks would be allowed because they are designed for the livestock industry. Mineral blocks are considered a "salt-based" product, not pure salt. Anything that is salt-based but not pure salt must be designed for the livestock industry. If it is, then you can use it.

wording says Nutritional supplements produced and manufactured for the livestock industry and placed during the course of livestock or agricultural operations.

placed during the course of livestock or agricultural operations.... I don't think average joe hunter can place these unless they are put out for the cattle..... but if the rancher puts it out for his cattle be it alfalfa, molasses, mineral block, corn, steak and eggs, chicken parmesan or whatever they put out you can hunt over it as long as it was put there by the rancher/ranch hands for the cattle.

 

James

 

James,

 

the salt-based products do not have to be placed in course of livestock operations, just have to be designed for livestock. See quoted rules below.

 

nutritional supplements are different than salt-based products.....so corn or whatever feed would be nutritional supplements and have to be put out during livestock operation, but a mineral block is apparently a salt-based product, not a nutritional supplement.

 

 

3. Salt-based materials produced and manufactured for the livestock industry.

 

4.Nutritional supplements produced and manufactured for the livestock industry and placed during the course of livestock or agricultural operations.

[willhunt4coues]

I did not know if it was specific to Deer Family or all big game that is why I asked. Well then why did they not include the small game in on this Coyotes, ect?

 

Thanks for the info on the big game. I use SALT only and just wanted to verify animals it included and what was included and of course I did not think they could say salt because just like the azgfd offical said it is natural to Arizona.

 

It does suck anytime they (gov) takes away a right. But what can we do about it. Heck look at Obahma or however you spell the guys name EVERYONE does not like him as our president but somehow he got elected. HUMMM?

 

The way I see it is no MATTER what you and I do will never be good enough for what is ALREADY decided. If they are going to do it they are doing it and you have NO RIGHTS!!!!

[JLW]

ok I think I got it now....

how about the waterhole rule about placing any substance device or object on or near a waterhole.........

does anyone know how this will be interpreted?

a treestand or a blind can be interpreted as such as well as a camera..... is this their way of saying no more hunting waterholes?

or are they saying?????? and how far is near?

 

James

[Antmo23]

I guess I'll just stick with spot and stalk, or hunting over water. I never did any baiting but this is still kinda pointless IMO... Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt this put into place to stop the transmission of a disease that doesnt exist around here? And if it did, then wouldn't the salt licks able to spread it around? I understand the concern about stopping the spread of disease, but this seems like it won't stop anything.

I think it was said on here in 1 of the original posts ( correct me if I'm wrong) that salt kills the disease or something to that effect.

 

James

 

Really? I guess I'll re-read and do some research. I don't bait, but loosing the option to bait stinks. I hope this isn't the first step to take away OTC archery deer tags...

[JLW]

 

I guess I'll just stick with spot and stalk, or hunting over water. I never did any baiting but this is still kinda pointless IMO... Correct me if im wrong, but wasnt this put into place to stop the transmission of a disease that doesnt exist around here? And if it did, then wouldn't the salt licks able to spread it around? I understand the concern about stopping the spread of disease, but this seems like it won't stop anything.

I think it was said on here in 1 of the original posts ( correct me if I'm wrong) that salt kills the disease or something to that effect.

 

James

 

Really? I guess I'll re-read and do some research. I don't bait, but loosing the option to bait stinks. I hope this isn't the first step to take away OTC archery deer tags...

here you go

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00093.htm

[bwakeling]

You know, I think every possible loophole gets tested within about 3 days of a rule being passed!

 

And believe me, we sure try to test them as much as possible before we even run them out as drafts.

 

OK, hogs are not wildlife. So you can use bait for hogs. But if you placed bait for hogs, then you cannot hunt deer over that bait. In fact, if you know someone else placed the bait for hogs, you cannot hunt deer over it.

 

Big game is defined in statute (A.R.S. 17-101((3)). They include wild turkey, deer, elk, pronghorn, bighorn sheep, bison, peccary, bear and mountain lion.

 

Salt is no better at killing CWD prions than anything else to my knowledge. But salt is so prevalent in the environment, that eliminating its use by hunters probably would do little to influence its distribution. Further, if you add more salt (just as with water), the crowding at existing salt (or water) is diminished. Wildlife need salt and water - they don't need other baits.

 

By the way, one of the other rule changes eliminates the need for archery deer hunters to report via telephone if they are successful.

 

There are unscrupulous hunters out there that have, in some instances, placed covers or deterents at waters when they knew that they were using only a couple of waters based on their camera photos, and they wanted to be sure that they could increase their odds of taking a deer at a given water source. So it isn't the blind or the trail camera, it is a physical or chemical deterrent placed to get deer (or other species) to come to a specific source to increase the probability of take that we are concerned with and the rule was designed to regulate. There was discussion regarding regulating blinds and cameras, but until we can demonstrate an effect on wildlife, we tend to avoid promulgation of rules on those topics. We really believe that most hunters are ethical and responsible enough to avoid that level of regulation. We need to be self-policing on the ethics so as to avoid population-level influences on wildlife.

 

These are great questions, and I hope these answers are helpful!

 

Brian Wakeling

Game Branch Chief

[dzell]

The problem with self policing ethics is alot of peoples ethics dont apply to them selves

[AZLance]

So is this Legal? It is labeled as a Salt Block. Is this a Salt Block or a Mineral Lick?

 

[DesertBull]

So is this Legal? It is labeled as a Salt Block. Is this a Salt Block or a Mineral Lick?

 

corn salt block.jpg

 

 

I would call that jail bait

[Lucafu1]

looks like its advertised for deer, not live stock.

[JLW]

I think I read something about someone on the strip or one of those units putting chemicals in some of the waterholes... makes sense.... think i'm ready for the upcoming season.... thanks for answering the questions!

 

James

[Alpinebullwinkle]

Thanks for all your added comments on this confusing new change Brian.