Archery Tips

[shortpants]

"In my opinion" I don't see how you expect everyone to have the same capabilities and limitations. Not everybody who plays baseball is a major leaguer but that does'nt mean just because your not in the major leagues your not just as good. It comes down to knowing what you can and can't do. Never try to be better than anyone but yourself. I would kill everything at 3ft. if i could. I'm a hunter. It's my passion. I can't write the script on my hunts. All I can do is be as good as I can be and know when to draw the line. If I hunt my a$$ off for two weeks and on the last evening I get the break I've been looking for, ( a shot at my quarry in my comfortable range,) you can bet your gut pile I'm going to attempt to harvest that animal. If everybody had the attitude that we should set boundries that should never be crossed, a 40yd. bow shot would be the impossible. Our equipment would never get any better. Just my 0.2c

[bobbyo]

[i would slam you for both the long shots.

 

Well at least your consistent Redbeard. I really respect your ethics and willingness to express them. My observation about the distance question. Was just an overall observation of the sight as a whole. And not directed at any individuals. You may remember a few months back some guy used your basic argument (real hunters get close) toward rifle hunting and said there should be a limit to the distance a person should shoot. That person was hammered right off the sight with at least 4 pages of replys from many of the regular contributers to this sight telling that guy about their great shooting ability and how they could plug deer at distances alot farther than 500 yards. I believed them. When this is contrasted with a bow discussion about shooting distance where I believe the majority of contributers agree with your basic premise. I feel that bow hunters are reluctant or afraid of a backlash to reveal that they take shots at long distance. For example Treestandman and his 60 yard dilemma that he wouldn't reveal and coueshunter84 personally witnessing 100 yard kills. I wonder if he witnessed them from the business end of a bow sight?

 

Back to my basic question restated. Why is it ok to be proud of your long distance rifle shots and not your long distance bow shots. I think it is a bias against archery.

[Redbeard]

Shortpants,

 

I hear what you are saying but I'm not suggesting that everybody have the same limitations. Heck, I don't have the same limitations from season to season or animal to animal. Conditions can dictate a lot of that too. The point is that there are natural and mechanical reasons why bowhunting is a close range form of hunting. When you choose the bow and arrow as your weapon you are choosing to limit your range from the very beginning. Then to go to the exteremes that some do to extend that range as much as possible seems counterintuitive.

 

In other words if somebody wants to be able to shoot an animal at longer distances why would they choose to bowhunt in the first place? It is sort of like a racewalker trying to win a 100yard sprint. Why choose a sport where you are limiting yourself to go slower than you can then try to race people who are running. Just run!

 

I must disagree with you on one point. In baseball if you are not in the major leagues you really are NOT as good as somebody who is. Unfortunately in bowhunting it is easy to kid yourself into thinking you are in the major leagues. In baseball when you step up to the plate against the Big Unit you find out pretty quickly if you are kidding yourself. Bowhunting coues deer for almost 15 years has taught me that I'm a double A bowhunter at best.

 

 

 

The rest of this post is just a bunch of philosophical rambling on my part and I apologize in advance if you choose to read it. Bowhunting has given me some of the best times of my life and I like to think that other people might get as much from it as I have so I try to share my experience just in case anybody cares. Also, I just can't sleep and enjoy blabbing about stuff like this so here goes...

 

 

 

I admit to being of the mentality that I must improve myself first to meet the challenge of the particular sport or situation. Really what I get out of bowhunting is the challenge of figuring out how to be successful in a particular hunt and the reward of seeing a plan come together. I practice shooting to improve my accuracy and range just like everybody else. It just seems that for many hunters the other part of the solution is not given much respect. I just happen to think that is the most rewarding part. That is becoming a better hunter too. Being a better hunter means being able to get closer (among other things). Bowhunting is really two words. The bow and the hunting.

 

I realize that this is just my opinion but I think it is also a worthy topic of discussion in relation to the questions of a young bowhunter. I know the majority of bowhunters are very good hunters and share similar values of the sport. I've guided lots of bowhunters and really enjoyed them all. At risk of offending some of the rifle hunters I can say that in general serious bowhuters are more dedicated and better hunters than most rifle hunters. Certainly the best hunters I've ever met are bowhunters. Look up Mike Ukrainetz on google for one example. He's a phenomenal guide and I've seen him do things bowhunting that still amaze me. Most of the huge bucks he guides his clients to are taken at ranges less than 40 yards and many at less than 20! Take my word for it. If you can consistantly get some treestand hunting gumby from Michigan to stalk within 20 yards of mature mulie and actually have them kill the deer you are one heck of a hunter and guide. He personally doesn't hunt with a gun and doesn't shoot more than about 40-50 yards with his bow. His hunting ability and intuition of animal nature is unmatched. He's a hoot to have in camp too. Eh?

 

Unfortunately the archery industry depends upon us constantly feeling inadequate because we didn't kill a whatever or a "trophy" whatever so, we will buy their latest gadget or faster bow. It seems so one dimensional like if you want to kill a deer or a big deer you have to have this and that and shoot the eye of a nat at 100 yards. The other dimension is this hunting part. You might get the impression it is all about shooting and nobody says (because it is hard to sell) what you really need to do is become a better hunter not just a better shooter. Almost nobody says the obvious. Bow hunting is hard, you have to get close, and you aren't going to kill one every year. It is really easy to lose sight of what bowhunting has been about for generations. You should see the piles of game Pope and Young used to shoot with hand made wooden bows and arrows. Now we have competitive 3D shoots for big money and all the big money hunting hype, magazines, record books, and it is no wonder we feel compelled to push the limits of shooting. Sometimes I think we all just need to step back and look at ourselves and our sport with a different perspective. Get a stickbow and walk around in the woods for a day killing pine cones and you will start to mellow out. It is just fun.

 

I don't know if anybody even cares to read all this but to me bowhunting is bigger and more important than any of us as individuals so I sometimes feel it is important to add my $.02 worth of perspective. There is so much more to it than shooting and killing a big whatever. Of course I still plan to try to kill a huge elk this year...

[jamaro]

B-12

I think that it is great that you have the goals of 70 yards... There is a training method called doubling.. If you want to be good at 30 yards practice at 60 if you want to be good at 35 yards practice at 70. Just keep shooting, alot of things can happen when an arrow is in flight for 70 yards. Only you can be the judge for each shot, as you know we all strive for a clean kill. That should be your goal more than distance.... You will learn real quick that it takes a big person to pass-up on marginal shots...

 

Jason

[Redman]

This hunting season i am wanting to be able to shoot from the furthest of 70. I cant seem to hit the target or anywhere near it. the best i can do right now is 40 yards hitting the heart every time. Going past that i cant kit the broad side of the barn. I practice 5 times a week for about 45 mins or so. I was wondering if you have any tips or pointers to help me out.

 

I am not sure how new you are to shooting a bow, but the best advice you can get is from an archery pro. There is a coach at PSE that gives shooting lessons. It is important to get proper form, anchor point and arrow release. Once you master these, groups at all distances will be better.

 

Start with the basics. Watch the dead on videos, and remember, only you will know what your comfortable range is. If you review the pope and young records, animals are taken at all distances (7 - 90 yds). One of the best known bowhunters killed a coues at 69 yds.

 

Redman

[mikep35]

Redbeard, You couldn't have said it better. I guess what you have to ask yourself is whether you would rather brag about killing a 100" coues buck at 90 yds, or brag about being a good enough hunter to get within 15 yds? For me, I'd rather be closer to an animal like that.

[TREESTANDMAN]

Redbeard,

 

Although I agree w/ you that there are factors outside of a bowhunters control that MAY result in a wounded animal at longer distance shots, I do not believe the distance an animal is shot from determines how good of a hunter one is. Different situations, terrains, and conditions will determine how close a bowhunter can get to his quarry. A good and ethical bowhunter will make a good judgement call based on the situation and his skill. I do practice up to distances of 80 yds w/ my bow and if I had a bull elk or even coues buck at 60 yds broadside w/ little or no wind and felt I could not stalk any closer, I would confidently take the shot. Am I an unskilled hunter for not being able to get any closer? Well, I guess it would depend on the terrain and conditions? If I make a good shot at 60 yds what are the chances of that buck/bulls vitals being in a different area by the time the arrow arrives? If I'm shooting my Mathews ultra2 at 300fps, the chances are very slim his vitals will escape.

[Colorado Archer]

"krp"

[coueshunter84]

Redbeard,

 

 

Thus the reason that this particular topic causes blood letting back east. And in the interm I agree with your point of view on about all of what you said. And yes I read through your whole post. Very well worded I might add.

 

 

I conscider myself a decent archer now having taken 11 big game animals with a bow. 2 of which are recordbook. 1 P&Y mulie (32 yards) and one javy (31 yards) in the AZ bowkill book. The rest of them were meat. I happen to like venison, about all of it I have tried. So I have been inclined to also make myself an archer. To which point I do realise there is a difference. As a hunter after an animal I try to get as close as possible. And 80%(+-) of my bowkills have been at average western ranges, Maybe even closer then average, ( doing the math right now those 9 kills average 34.5 yards). All of which are spot and stalk. The other 2 kills are the ones that could be contested by another hunter. But probably not by another archer. The first of these was a 91 yard shot on a mulie. The other one was right at 100 yards aslo on a mulie. Both of those were one arrow kills. Neither went more then 30 yards from where they were standing when I released.

 

There are several things that differentiate those 2 shots from the others. Mainly I was not able to get any closer. Period. And to that add animals that were not aware of my presence, Wind absent in both cases, straight flat shots. Known distances via rangefinder. And more importantly. LAst day of the December season 3pm on one and the last day I had to hunt in Wyoming on the other. And finally I did not want to eat the tag. For some reason I havent figured out how to cook one of the dang things and make it tasty enough to eat. So for me there are times when I turn the hunter off and the archer on. But everything has to be as close to perfect as you can get. And prior to both of those kills I had educated my fair share of animals trying to get closer. Including blowing a stalk on a 110" coues at 35 yards. I spent close to 4 hours stalking that one, and had him well within effective range (120 yards) for almost 2 hours. But I had to get closer. I just had to . And ended up blowing the whole thing after getting with-in 35 yards. The archer in me does not come out to play very often. I have been lucky enough to have been able to get close enough to everything else.

 

As for the mulies mentioined above. ONe is a 4 1/2 y/o 4x2 that measured about 115" total before deductions (LOL). about 22 wide. the one I took in Wyoming was a spike. Yep a spike. and boy was he tasty. Oh and a little earlier in that Wyoming hunt I got my first archery antelope ( missed P&Y by 1/8") at 15 yards. So yes sometimes its nice to be able to stretch the distance out a little, and I do it without any remorse at all. I'm very comfortable out to 120 yards, with my primary bow, and know that I have the KE at that range to put a hurt on whatever I shoot at. And the ability to put the arrow where I want it. But its a whole lot more fun trying to get within 30 yards.. LOL>.

[Redbeard]

Bobbyo,

 

I guess sometimes I'm just overprotective of hunting and so am really worried that something we do will come back to bite us. I've seen it happen several times in hunting and my first love rock climbing. Areas get closed, trapping gets banned, etc.

 

I'm just not impressed by long shots in hunting situations because to me they often lead to something less than an optimal hit. So when I hear even a very good shooter talking about long shots I cringe because I know there are other guys who feel the need to impress their friends with their shooting but they really aren't that good.

 

Now this is just my personal deal but I respect somebody more for passing a long or bad shot than for pulling one off. It is way harder NOT to fling than to fling.

 

Ever watch the Primos Truth videos? They may sound like a bunch of Mississippi yahoos but they are very ethical hunters. I really respect those guys for passing up close range shots on elk that are quartering towards them. They make a big deal about it in their BS sessions. They know from experience that that is a bad shot on an elk. I respect that they take the time on every one of those elk vieos to stress that and hopefully educate a bunch of hunters and prevent some bad situations. I guess in a way that is what motivates me to make these long winded posts on subjects like this sometimes. You may notice I don't post much on CW.com but some things are worth it to me to spend time pecking away on this computer.

 

Treestand man,

 

You are right about getting close not meaning you are "better hunter" I should have said something like besides working on your shooting skills you should also consider improving your hunting skills. Better hunters can get closer than bad hunters but you are right close does not equal better. My bad.

 

Even though I have thoroughly hijacked this kids post I was still thinking he was still the subject so I was kind of giving advice. Just because I killed a coues deer at 15 yards does not mean I am a better hunter than you or somebody else. My point is that if he improves his hunting skills he may not feel the need to shoot longer ranges.

 

As for your point abaout the 60 yard shot...Actually the odds of his vitals not being there are fairly high if it is a coues deer. I have seen them jump the string several times on the fastest bows (250-300 fps) at much closer ranges. I'm not saying you or anaybody else should have the same limits as I do just that there are inherent limits to the weapon and the hunting situation that make longer shots lower odds. I would just hate to blow it on a live animal. Everybody has their own mind to make up.

 

BTW My shooting is gettng back up to par, I was shooting my Mathews LX today at my 3D deer and getting 8 and 10 ring shots every time. So don't think I'm a total trad purist. I still think I'll hunt elk with the longbow though. It isn't that hard to get under 30 if they are rutting good. I hope...

 

Colorado Archer,

 

You are definitely a better shooter than most if you can consistently shoot to kill at 100 yards in a hunting situation. 99.99% of people aren't physically talented enough and don't practice enough to shoot like that.

 

Your comment about you will decide on your limitations is true. We each need to know our limitations and do our best to stick with them. Unfortunately some guys don't have much respect for the animals they pursue and the future of the sport of bowhunting. It is all about themselves and making a kill and if they wound and lose an animal, "so what". They will shoot at another. I have met these guys too many times. I was a full time hunting guide for 7 years and have seen all kinds. So, for all the guys not as talented as you trying to shoot antelope at 100 yards there are wounded bucks walking around. Pretty soon you won't be deciding your limitations because bowhunting will be banned and there will be nobody to blame but ourselves.

 

Coueshunter 84,

 

I'm no different than you or lots of other guys. You put a lot into the stalk and just can't get any closer. It is the last day. "Oh, I better take this shot it is my last chance." I've been there before. The point is the longer the range the lower the odds of a clean kill and the higher the chance of wounding an animal. There is no argument about that. It is just physics. A small error at 20 yards, say 2" off is 10" off at 100 yards. If you had made a bad shot at those deer and wounded them it would have been tragic. I know it would have been for me anyhow. You are obviously a very good and ethical archer and really think things through and I'm not bagging on you one bit for those shots.

 

Like I said I'm not perfect and I can make bad shots too and at closer ranges. I just think we all need to be realistic about our personal limits and respect the animals and the sport enough not to push them too far.

 

You know all this preaching I'm doing here is going to jinx me for hunting this season. I better stop.

[bobbyo]

Redbeard like I said before I really respect your ethics. I just believe that with care under right conditions a long archery shot can be an ethical shot for that person. Personally I would rather have a 70 yard shot with feet planted firmly at an unaware animal that is broadside than a 28 yarder shooting from an akward position at a skittish deer. Of coarse my first experience bowhunting was for carp in wide open areas. Maybe if I started on coues first or eastern whitetail I might look at it diferently. I am all for dropping this and getting the teenager a deer.

BoB

[bobbyo]

I almost forgot, nice shot Colorado Archer and congratulations on your antelope (thanks for sharing the distance). I have not hunted Antelope with a bow. Someday I will get a tag. From the way it looks, spot and stalking antelope must be one of North America's toughest hunts. Likewise hunting Antelpope with a rifle in my opinion is North America's easiest hunt for a big game animal. How about this as a proposal to increase tags(and lower success rates). Ban rifle and waterhole hunting for antelope. Spot and stalk with a bow only. G+F could increase tags by the 1000s and maybe I could draw one. Redbeard is right it is more about the hunt then the harvest.

Bob

[Colorado Archer]

RB, and all,

I want to apologize for my frame of mide when I replied. I re-read my post today and realize it sounded very...defensive. I have worked in an archery shop and I do agree with what you are saying when it comes to the archery public. I understand that probably 95% (or more) of the bowhunting public shouldn't hunt past...say 35-40 yards. I know I'm a bit hypocritacal when it comes to flinging arrows. I practiced very long and hard out to 140 yards so that when 60-70 yards is as good as I can do... I feel confident. Your probably right, I should be a better hunter and get closer...but I'm not. I try to be a better shot instead. So here's to close, broadside shots.....and sneekiness

CA

[coueshunter84]

Redbeard,

 

 

 

Again you are very well versed, and correct in your thoughts. The slimest amount of error at that range will resort to something I really dont ever want to happen. That being a wounded animal. In answering that, I have had more reactions from animals at less then 50 yards, then more then 50 yards. Neither of my kills at those long ranges moved a muscle when I released. Not even to see what the noise was.( yes my bow is really quiet). But I'm shooting about 330fps. So my arrows do make soem noise. The mulie I stuck here in AZ did not move until he turned and seen the arrow sticking out of him. ( broke 2 ribs on the way in and 3 on the other side punching through the center of one rib and wedging about 6" out of his chest on the other side Taking both lungs with it ) The spike kicked his heels up moved about 10 yards and fell over. The does with him stuck around for quite a while, while we found away to get down the riverbank ( 35 foot sheer ) not one of those deer had much of an idea what happened except that jr. was bleeding. One of the does was licking the entrance wound when we finally got there 2 hours later. That arrow passed through him and then through 3 salt ceder type branches on the other side of him. Also clipping both front shoulders ( cartlidge), gettign both lungs and the heart. took me a few minutes to get that one out. LOL..

 

 

Anyway, I still like getting close, and I appreciate you not bashing. And I also think that the over all meaning of all of these posts on the subject is You make your own decisions on your shooting distances. Which have to include but aer not limited to your self and your own competence, which is directly releated to how much you practice. The ammount of practice you do. How well your equipment is tuned, How much ke your equipment puts out at those distances. What kind of broadheads yoru shooting as compared to ke. and a whole bunch of other factors. Including the animal and what they are doing at the time. etc.etc.etc.etc.

 

 

 

 

Dont shoot farther then you or your equipment are capable of shooting. PERIOD> And then make sure the shot is good.

[BowNut]

coueshunter84,

 

Do not want to get off the subject but what bow an arrow combo are you shooting to get 330 fps?