Antler Restrictions

[Pine Donkey]

Let's not create any new laws until we are able to enforce the existing ones.

[Tines]

I think most here have the right idea. Amanda, your response hit the nail on the head.

 

I'm not a biologist but I do spend enough time in the field to recognize what a "quality" hunt is and what it isn't. As already mentioned about the 4th season implemented, obviously the dept's definition of quality is different than mine (and many of yours).

 

I understand they're between a rock and a hard place with supply and demand. But the supply should always take precedence over the demand. This is sound game management, IMO. If the dept as a whole wanted to offer quality wildlife management to the hunters of AZ, they'd take the advice of their own WMs. But our WMs feel like their hands are tied. They can do all of the surveys and studies they want, an alternative agenda is usually what's implemented instead. If a WM suggests that a reduction in permits needs to take place in his/her unit, I'm sure there's a very good reason for that. So instead the dept INCREASES permits??? Makes zero sense. Why are we requiring our WMs to be biologists if their input and work is ignored anyway? To recognize what a desert sotol (I finally learned the correct term yesterday! ha!) is and how Coues deer really enjoy barrel cactus fruit is far from a biologists objective. But what do I know?

 

Maybe the majority of hunters dont mind seeing more hunters than deer when they go out. Maybe it's not necessarily an opportunity to have a decent chance at filling their tag, just a chance to get away and become an armed hiker for a weekend. Not me. I'd pick up a new hobby fast. I, for one, am not that person and feel that the "more opportunity" option was quite deceiving.

 

 

 

 

[POB]

No, I was not serious about the native rule. I am serious about limiting the amount of hunters though. In 34A in just the general WT hunts they allowed 1950 hunter is an area with only one mountain range. In my opinion that is at least 450 too many. Even at 20 % success that's 390 bucks ( not counting bow kills) out of a rather small area. This makes the Dept. money but we, the hunters pay the price of having a hunter on every hill and three on every water hole. Of course the native only rule would let me have a trophy hunt EVERY TIME. haha. I think something needs to be done, just not sure what. Just too many hunters and not enough deer.

[Non-Typical Solutions]

Here is one that was removed from the genetic gene pool and Cole nor I are disappointed at the least.

 

 

As a dad trying to help my kid have a successful hunt, I am glad he was able to find a legal buck and take this first deer for him.

[Coach]

Thanks for all the responses. It's one of those topics I've thought about from time-to-time but never really got a strong feeling one way or the other. On the one hand, it seems like it would result in more mature deer. But as others have pointed out, NM has had this in place for a long time, and you don't see a big difference in size or numbers of mature bucks.

[bojangles]

i want to shoot a big deer, so you're not allowed to shoot a small one.

 

 

 

 

brilliant!

[nighthawk]

i want to shoot a big deer, so you're not allowed to shoot a small one.

Lol good point haha

 

 

 

brilliant!

[kwp]

As many have already said, the number of tags is rediculous. The early hunts have too many tags plus they keep adding more hunts. I don't buy the whole opportunity arguement. If we need more opportunity then why are there thousands of leftover tags every year? Everyone here seems to get it, are we really in the minority? I remember the survey that g&f put out a few years back, supposedly people wanted more opportunity but since that time they have continually added tags. Is there anything we can do to reverse this trend?

 

G&F also has some units that they claim are managed for quality, with less tags (36c) but these units seem to be small units with more access restrictions so they should obviously have less tags.

[bonecollector]

No chance in heck i'm telling my daughter when she starts hunting she cant shoot that spike when he has an opportunity. In my opinion if hunters arent taking these younger deer the predators will. In the particular area I hunt I had a couple bucks over 100" coming in almost everyday for the last couple yrs an lately they havent been. I have noticed more yotes on cam I have never had before. Not saying thats the problem but in my opinion it is.

As for opportunity, I was always for it until this yr. 1 day I had a hunter on both sides of me within 200 yds each direction. Talk about no fun. I have decided I will no longer put in for these hunts just to get out and hunt. I wouls rather have a quality hunt rather than hunt every yr.

 

Reduce the tags already!!

[Flatlander]

Personally I don't feel antler restrictions will do much good unless you also drop hunting pressure (ie number of tags). The point of antler restrictions is to allow young bucks to grow up, but with antler restrictions in place, you just move ALL the hunting pressure onto the larger bucks. Which means lower survival for big bucks. If you want big bucks, you need to increase their survival to past age 4-5, and protecting spikes and forkies just gets you past about age 2. I think a better strategy is to reduce the number of permits to increase survival of all bucks and also reduce crowds. To me, that increases the quality of the hunt. I also really don't like that our deer have to go through four seasons pretty much back to back, but at least that addresses the overcrowding issue. My UPS delivery guy told me the other day that although he has been an avid hunter for quite awhile, he is contemplating quitting because he can't stand the crowds. He says he would rather get a tag once every 4 years and hunt with fewer people and more bucks than get a tag every year.

 

I lived in ID for a while in college. I hunted some 4 point only units thinking they would have less pressure / larger animals. Boy was i disappointed. As someone who has seen these antler restrictions in effect I can tell you that Amanda has nailed it here. Point restrictions are ineffective at targeting mature deer and encourage bad genetics. But hey maybe they could help those of us who have always dreamed of killing a 90" 2 point.

[audsley]

As I understand it, antler restrictions can result in degrading the gene pool. A buck with exceptional genes and nutrition can become a small 3-point in a year and a half. A buck with poor genes for antlers can remain a spike after 2 1/2 years. Antler restrictions would have us removing the superior buck and preserving the inferior one and allowing it to keep breeding. I believe that's why antler restrictions in Colorado and elsewhere failed to produced the results expected.

 

A lot of this stuff remains a mystery. A friend of mine killed a buck that was in the neighborhood of 100 pts and took it to AGFD for aging. Their tooth analysis said the buck was only 2 1/2 years old. No one believed that, especially since the buck generally had a grizzled, mature look about it overall, but that's what the teeth said. We now refer to it as the "applesauce buck" because we figure the only way that deer could have prevented normal tooth wear is by staying on a strict diet of applesauce its entire life. Go figure.

[scoutm]

IMHO, if you want to see a larger number of bigger/better age class deer here's what I believe the management strategy needs to be:

 

1. Reduce the number of tags in all units

2. Find a way to Increase the annual Lion harvest (you could also add Coyotes - particularly for Antelope)

3. Open up access to ALL public lands to help spread the pressure.

4. Mandatory Harvest reporting so they know what is actually being harvested

5. Restore/rebuild and develop water catchments

 

I'm no expert but it would seem to me that these 5 things would have tremedous benefit for big game.

[200"mulie]

IMHO, if you want to see a larger number of bigger/better age class deer here's what I believe the management strategy needs to be:

 

1. Reduce the number of tags in all units

2. Find a way to Increase the annual Lion harvest (you could also add Coyotes - particularly for Antelope)

3. Open up access to ALL public lands to help spread the pressure.

4. Mandatory Harvest reporting so they know what is actually being harvested

5. Restore/rebuild and develop water catchments

 

I'm no expert but it would seem to me that these 5 things would have tremedous benefit for big game.

 

+1 you said it before i could lol

 

Less tags, mandatory hunt report (successfull or not), kill more lions and a lot more yotes

[Non-Typical Solutions]

IMHO, if you want to see a larger number of bigger/better age class deer here's what I believe the management strategy needs to be:

 

1. Reduce the number of tags in all units

2. Find a way to Increase the annual Lion harvest (you could also add Coyotes - particularly for Antelope)

3. Open up access to ALL public lands to help spread the pressure.

4. Mandatory Harvest reporting so they know what is actually being harvested

5. Restore/rebuild and develop water catchments

 

I'm no expert but it would seem to me that these 5 things would have tremedous benefit for big game.

 

+1 you said it before i could lol

 

Less tags, mandatory hunt report (successfull or not), kill more lions and a lot more yotes

Sounds so simple don't it????

And is exactly what needs to happen...................

[ForkHorn]

As I understand it, antler restrictions can result in degrading the gene pool. A buck with exceptional genes and nutrition can become a small 3-point in a year and a half. A buck with poor genes for antlers can remain a spike after 2 1/2 years. Antler restrictions would have us removing the superior buck and preserving the inferior one and allowing it to keep breeding. I believe that's why antler restrictions in Colorado and elsewhere failed to produced the results expect

 

This is the reason for having spike only hunts in some states. Or having hunts that designate spike or a certain antler restrictions. (3 points on one side). The illegal bucks are the young bucks with good genes. That's the theory anyway..