520HUNT Report post Posted October 15, 2012 People on this site need to stop bashing game and fish. Game and Fish is developing a bad taste in their mouth for Coueswhitetail members because of it. You got this backwards... I am the one left with the bad taste in my mouth from Game and Fish 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
123456 Report post Posted October 15, 2012 People on this site need to stop bashing game and fish. Game and Fish is developing a bad taste in their mouth for Coueswhitetail members because of it. You got this backwards... I am the one left with the bad taste in my mouth from Game and Fish Man people will do anything for tags these days!!!!! LOL! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
520HUNT Report post Posted October 15, 2012 123456, what unit do you manage? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AverageJoe Report post Posted October 15, 2012 People on this site need to stop bashing game and fish. Game and Fish is developing a bad taste in their mouth for Coueswhitetail members because of it. You got this backwards... I am the one left with the bad taste in my mouth from Game and Fish Man people will do anything for tags these days!!!!! LOL! Dang you figured out my secret... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AverageJoe Report post Posted October 15, 2012 People on this site need to stop bashing game and fish. Game and Fish is developing a bad taste in their mouth for Coueswhitetail members because of it. You got this backwards... I am the one left with the bad taste in my mouth from Game and Fish Why? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hoghntr Report post Posted October 15, 2012 Just one step closer to taking away hound hunting, they've done it California and Oregon! The more they take away in little steps the easier it is and less noticable! Against this 100%! Before long if we allow them to keep taking away our rights we will be stuck with sling shots trying to kill an elk....and with non-lead by the way! no eventually we will end up paying to enter our forest and will watch thousands of animals get killed and burned because of disease outbreak because our state will have outlawed hunting.. then the remaining animals will die during a bad winter.. well they said our atv stamps were top pay for signage for forest roads and we get no signs but they close roads.. i guess our fines we pay might pay for signage??? this is all about archers doing better than the old 2% or whatever it was.. if anyone was seriously worried about cwd they would pay a little more attention to the the "epileptic" cows down around Maricopa dairys and the huge boneyareds just accross the roads where they scatter the carcasses of the dead.. these cows have mad cow written all over them and we just keep on consuming their milk etc etc.... i do not want cwd here any more than anyone else but since it has swept the country i would say it will be here so i guess it all depends on if baiting is truly gonna make a difference?? i highly doubt it.. water is where they will get sick period the end. i can say as a baiter it does bother me that some people bait in ways that might be harmful to a animal and that should be managed. like use trace mineral salt not mortons water softener salt. and look up founder and collic before you become a baiter ... and if your animals hooves are 9" long when you kill it that means they were rellying on your food for many months and what will the young ones do now that you quit feeding and they haven't learned didly about life .. c-mon guys if a bit more common sense had been used in the beginning this might be a non issue.. so if my rights are squashed i wont just be dissapointed that Game and Fish failed me i will also me dissapointed with all the stupid hunters out there that could't carry ethics over into their baiting arena. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hoghntr Report post Posted October 15, 2012 The Facts.... I know we all get charged up and mad.... I know we all want to put emotion into it... But the facts is where the truth lies. 1) There is NO data collected in the state of AZ to support a ban on baiting or anything of the sort. 2) AZGFD is taking a fast track approach to this issue (during hunting season) with very little effort to inform any of us about the “new rule”. 3) All the “data” AZGFD claims to be using in from states that have 20+ deer per square mile. Fact: Other than residential areas there are no deer numbers that approach this in AZ. 4) Water sources concentrates game in Arizona FAR more than any bait source PERIOD… water is our rarest commodity. 5) We do not have the winters that CWD states have, we don’t have “deer yards”, and we do not have major migration routes that concentrate hundreds of animals per sq. mile. 6) We as hunters must realize that supporting “how” others hunt and their personal right to do so is a good thing… especially if it has little effect on you as hunter. I mean let’s face it… I dislike the guys that think camping right where the elk like to rut is a Major Jackarse move, but it is a free country and I certainly don’t want another rule to stop them from camping there! 7) Opportunity… The AZGFD dumped tons of tags into the hunts in order to boost “hunter recruitment” and “hunter opportunity”, so why with NO REAL data would we allow them to ramrod a rule through that removes opportunity and recruitment for many hunters???? Specifically: youth, women, elderly, and handicapped… WHY!!!?? 8) Economic impacts: How many $$$ are generated for the AZGFD, local businesses, and households in AZ due to resident and NON-Resident hunters who use this method?? This number is HUGE… Every small, local archery shop, feed store, Sportsman’s Warehouse, Cabela’s, Bass Pro Shop, Wal-Mart, etc will take a hit as well. Check out the “bait” isle at any of these places and you will see how it will affect the especially the Small Mom & Pops shops…. And I know many of you are also anti-guide, but many folks feed families & pay mortgages by working in the outdoors and some of those guys will also take a hit. 9) AZGFD must do its “Due Diligence” when making a rule change that affects this many different facets of the hunting community. They have changed their stance on why this rule should be in place every time we hit them with a bullet point that they can’t defend. A rule like this requires DATA, and they have provided NONE that applies specifically to our state and our herd numbers. 10) Unity: It is our responsibility as tax payers, who pay the salaries of our government, to force them to Prove the point and not just make more rules on whimsical emotion… We are seeing it not only at the state level but also at a national and global level and if we as Americans don’t put on the breaks it will lead to tyranny…. GINO FOR PRESIDENT!!!!! YOU ALWAYS MAKE THE MOST SENSE!!!!!!!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reganranch Report post Posted October 15, 2012 The Facts.... I know we all get charged up and mad.... I know we all want to put emotion into it... But the facts is where the truth lies. 1) There is NO data collected in the state of AZ to support a ban on baiting or anything of the sort. 2) AZGFD is taking a fast track approach to this issue (during hunting season) with very little effort to inform any of us about the “new rule”. 3) All the “data” AZGFD claims to be using in from states that have 20+ deer per square mile. Fact: Other than residential areas there are no deer numbers that approach this in AZ. 4) Water sources concentrates game in Arizona FAR more than any bait source PERIOD… water is our rarest commodity. 5) We do not have the winters that CWD states have, we don’t have “deer yards”, and we do not have major migration routes that concentrate hundreds of animals per sq. mile. 6) We as hunters must realize that supporting “how” others hunt and their personal right to do so is a good thing… especially if it has little effect on you as hunter. I mean let’s face it… I dislike the guys that think camping right where the elk like to rut is a Major Jackarse move, but it is a free country and I certainly don’t want another rule to stop them from camping there! 7) Opportunity… The AZGFD dumped tons of tags into the hunts in order to boost “hunter recruitment” and “hunter opportunity”, so why with NO REAL data would we allow them to ramrod a rule through that removes opportunity and recruitment for many hunters???? Specifically: youth, women, elderly, and handicapped… WHY!!!?? 8) Economic impacts: How many $$$ are generated for the AZGFD, local businesses, and households in AZ due to resident and NON-Resident hunters who use this method?? This number is HUGE… Every small, local archery shop, feed store, Sportsman’s Warehouse, Cabela’s, Bass Pro Shop, Wal-Mart, etc will take a hit as well. Check out the “bait” isle at any of these places and you will see how it will affect the especially the Small Mom & Pops shops…. And I know many of you are also anti-guide, but many folks feed families & pay mortgages by working in the outdoors and some of those guys will also take a hit. 9) AZGFD must do its “Due Diligence” when making a rule change that affects this many different facets of the hunting community. They have changed their stance on why this rule should be in place every time we hit them with a bullet point that they can’t defend. A rule like this requires DATA, and they have provided NONE that applies specifically to our state and our herd numbers. 10) Unity: It is our responsibility as tax payers, who pay the salaries of our government, to force them to Prove the point and not just make more rules on whimsical emotion… We are seeing it not only at the state level but also at a national and global level and if we as Americans don’t put on the breaks it will lead to tyranny…. GINO FOR PRESIDENT!!!!! YOU ALWAYS MAKE THE MOST SENSE!!!!!!!!!! I'll sign that petition. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elkaholic Report post Posted October 15, 2012 heres the exact wording from the recommendations- ya better take notice of the last paragraph Because recent amendments to R12-4-304 allow the take of coyotes and mountain lions at night, when authorized by Commission Order, it is necessary to restrict the use of night vision equipment as it provides an advantage to increase safety, protect the sport of hunting, and ensure fair chase. The rule is amended to prohibit holding wildlife at bay during daylight hours and injuring, confining, or placing a tracking device on wildlife to prevent "canned" and "will call" hunts. The rule is amended to prohibit an individual from placing any substance, device, or object in, on, or near a water source to intentionally restrict wildlife from using the water source to ensure wildlife have adequate access to water sources. The rule is amended to prohibit the use of edible or ingestible substances to attract big game for the purposes of hunting to proactively address concerns that baiting may facilitate the transmission of diseases among wildlife and placing substances in the wild that contain toxic contaminants and may also result in unnatural concentrations of wildlife. The rules is also amended to prohibit the use of dogs to pursue or hold at bay any bear or lion for another hunter unless the hunter is present for the entire pursuit to more closely regulate the pursuit of bears and lions with dogs and increase consistency within Commission rules. A continuing Department concern is the occurrence of "will call" hunts, where an individual hunting with the aid of dogs holds a lion or bear at bay during an open season and calls another hunter who has a tag for the species to make the kill. Because pursuit falls under the definition of take, it is considered a method of take and appropriately included in this rule. This rule amendment is consistent with the rule language contained in R12-4-208 and extends this requirement to all hunters, thus NPRM - 4 increasing consistency among the current set of rules. In addition, the Commission believes that R12-4-303 exists to prohibit devices and methods that either compromise the spirit of fair chase or adversely impact hunter success rates. The recent increase in the use of baiting has resulted in disproportionally high harvest rates among those using this method of hunting. Consequently, the Commission is offering fewer hunting opportunities, which negatively impacts hunter recruitment and retention. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scooter Report post Posted October 15, 2012 "All the advances in hunting technology over the years has been ours. The deer's knowledge is the same as it always has been." -Average American Great post, and you're right- we will never all agree unanimously on issues like baiting. The excerpt from your post that I copied and pasted above is one I would like to discuss. A deer's knowledge is not at all what it has always been. Because we humans advance in technology we humans have increased a deer's knowledge ten-fold. How many times have hunters been busted in a treestand because the deer are looking up? That's something they learned from our technology. Why do they go nocturnal? They are reacting to our presence in the woods. Why do we have to brush in our ground blinds so well? Why do we have to conceal our scent to get close? Deer have a superior "technological" advantage to begin with. They see better, hear better, have the ultimate nose, they're faster than us, they withstand inclimate weather and temperatures better than us, they have better camoflage than us, and they move most times without making a sound. You can use all the modern technology in the world and still eat tag soup every year. The minute that a certain human technology guarantees 100% success on deer is the day that a law should be passed. Now... Do I use bait? Nope. But I would not like to see those that do on their own private property lose that ability. The compromise in my mind would be to eliminate baiting strictly on public property. Private Property is a place where a bait ban would seem like a severe overreach. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ready2hunt Report post Posted October 15, 2012 heres the exact wording from the recommendations- ya better take notice of the last paragraph Because recent amendments to R12-4-304 allow the take of coyotes and mountain lions at night, when authorized by Commission Order, it is necessary to restrict the use of night vision equipment as it provides an advantage to increase safety, protect the sport of hunting, and ensure fair chase. The rule is amended to prohibit holding wildlife at bay during daylight hours and injuring, confining, or placing a tracking device on wildlife to prevent "canned" and "will call" hunts. The rule is amended to prohibit an individual from placing any substance, device, or object in, on, or near a water source to intentionally restrict wildlife from using the water source to ensure wildlife have adequate access to water sources. The rule is amended to prohibit the use of edible or ingestible substances to attract big game for the purposes of hunting to proactively address concerns that baiting may facilitate the transmission of diseases among wildlife and placing substances in the wild that contain toxic contaminants and may also result in unnatural concentrations of wildlife. The rules is also amended to prohibit the use of dogs to pursue or hold at bay any bear or lion for another hunter unless the hunter is present for the entire pursuit to more closely regulate the pursuit of bears and lions with dogs and increase consistency within Commission rules. A continuing Department concern is the occurrence of "will call" hunts, where an individual hunting with the aid of dogs holds a lion or bear at bay during an open season and calls another hunter who has a tag for the species to make the kill. Because pursuit falls under the definition of take, it is considered a method of take and appropriately included in this rule. This rule amendment is consistent with the rule language contained in R12-4-208 and extends this requirement to all hunters, thus NPRM - 4 increasing consistency among the current set of rules. In addition, the Commission believes that R12-4-303 exists to prohibit devices and methods that either compromise the spirit of fair chase or adversely impact hunter success rates. The recent increase in the use of baiting has resulted in disproportionally high harvest rates among those using this method of hunting. Consequently, the Commission is offering fewer hunting opportunities, which negatively impacts hunter recruitment and retention. Actually both paragraphs can raise eyebrows. The first one can legally justify a ticket or citation to hunting in a blind or stand over a waterhole.."The rule is amended to prohibit an individual from placing any substance, DEVICE, or object in, on, or near a water source to intentionally restrict wildlife from using the water source to ensure wildlife have adequate access to water sources" Again, though its just my opinon...no reason to get crazy over it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GotBowAz Report post Posted October 15, 2012 Lord forgive me for giving my input but... 1) Every time I see a nice AZ Archery Coues, I think..."Nice Bait, Buck". In NM we can't bait or use salt or even use scents... We have to hunt them old school 2) Bottom line is that the AZ Dept of Game and Fish is trying to get a handle on the abnormaly high success rate for archery coues deer. If things stay the same and you can continue to bait be prepared for no more OTC Archery tags... That will be their only option... J- Jamaro, Outside of your opinion on baiting or any other method I could not disagree with you more. There is no reason to go to a draw. F&G can go to a mandatory call in and reporting just like they do for bear. Once the harvest Quota has been met for that area it gets closed down BUT a hunter could move on to a different area that isn't closed. This would still keep hunters buying OTC tags so F&G still gets the same money each year and it still allows hunters opportunity regardless of the method used. So no we don't need to be prepared for no more OTC tags as F&G doesn't have to go to a draw system to get the same result for harvest numbers or tag sales. GBA 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jamaro Report post Posted October 15, 2012 GBA... We thought the same thing in NM... and we are now on a draw system for just about everything... It is the whole North American Model for Conservation deal. I hope it doesn't go to a draw because I can always count on AZ to hunt deer in the late season if I am fortunate enough to take a early season deer in NM... At the end of the day I think that the department is trying to manage the deer herd and it is difficult without the draw... Just think, every year someone on this website posts people encouraging people not to report harvests... Just to mess with the numbers. I am not sure anybody has the true harvest figures but I am sure that they are abnormally high considering the deer densities. J- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elkaholic Report post Posted October 15, 2012 kinda sneaky to slip it inbetween a paragraph talking about "will call" hunts dont ya think ! the fact remains the commission doesnt want baiting ! Whats alarming is the wording of the new admendments so - it can be up to the discression of the wardens to interpit it as they see. whats a bait pile without a camera to show you whats there - is that blind affecting the way the animals approach or use a water hole etc!! next you will not be allowed to hunt within 100 yrds ofa waterhole - unfair adbvantage ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
200"mulie Report post Posted October 15, 2012 Lord forgive me for giving my input but... 2) Bottom line is that the AZ Dept of Game and Fish is trying to get a handle on the abnormaly high success rate for archery coues deer. If things stay the same and you can continue to bait be prepared for no more OTC Archery tags... That will be their only option... +1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
