elkaholic Report post Posted October 6, 2012 ok http://hiddenlens.wordpress.com/2012/10/02/moon-rise-moon-set/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andygrand Report post Posted October 6, 2012 I don't buy the friendly fire deal either. Not only would it put holes in the border security claim, but f this came back to fast and furious it would be devestating. The other issue I have is the assumption that two border patrol agents could shoot each other when they were the only ones around. In any type of night time operation that I have worked there were extra precautions taken to identify friend or foe. I understand when it is dark and you hear footsteps your adrenaline is pumping, but any properly trained operator will not shoot without positive identification. It is possible the agent felt he had that identification but I truly doubt it. I would have to assume they were in radio contact, and were at least aware that there were other agents in the area. If that was not the case then that is a procedural flaw in border patrol operations. It just doesn't sound right, these guys are too well trained and too versed at this for this too happen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstcoueswas80 Report post Posted October 6, 2012 Yes, because Colorado and Arizona are exactly the same. I was working that night, and at approximately 0130 hours, I was driving, and I can tell you there was very little to NO moon light. But you're right, what the moon was doing in COLORADO is exactly the same as it was doing in very much southern ARIZONA. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elkaholic Report post Posted October 6, 2012 http://www.timeandda...on&afl=-1&day=1 i agee that trained professionals - with yrs in the field working together - even on high allert - aren't gonna shoot randomly into the "NIGHT" not knowing where each other are located . Sad news for all America and Arizona - Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AZLance Report post Posted October 7, 2012 Radio comms along our border are spotty at best, especially in the canyon areas... Very sad day. One agent is dead, and the other probably wishes he was dead after killing his partner. Cant even imagine what etheir side is feeling right now. Prayers go out for everyone involved. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jamaro Report post Posted October 7, 2012 There is a lot more to this story than people realize, it was a perfect storm... I am looking at this thread, and everybody is saying two people. But there were actually 3 people in two different groups. I know it is probably hard to admit that the agents made a serious error but they are only human, rather than trying to come up with these conspiracies theories just pray for those involved. Pray for all involved... The only people that will ever really know are the two men and one woman that were involved, it might all come out but does it really do any good??? We all want someone to blame but in this case it just might have been a fatal mistake. J- 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
superdave Report post Posted October 8, 2012 It is a sad day indeed, when the actions of our government CAUSE us to not trust them. There is alot more to FF than we will ever know, and I think there is more to this than we will ever know. So just to re-iterate, our highly trained and equipped agents, who do this all the time for a living, mis identified each other, and they both opened fire on an unknown person, one of them opened fire on the other UNPREVOKED? I find this highly unlikely, when all the training and protocols are in place to prevent just such a thing from happening. Its all just a little too pat, and the narrative is the same: accident, friendly fire, workplace injury, safest border ever... I support the men and women in green, but the folks running things are dirty. They deserve better. -sd Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azgutpile Report post Posted October 8, 2012 Yes, because Colorado and Arizona are exactly the same. I was working that night, and at approximately 0130 hours, I was driving, and I can tell you there was very little to NO moon light. But you're right, what the moon was doing in COLORADO is exactly the same as it was doing in very much southern ARIZONA. Casey, When you are out there in the pitch dark looking thru the night vision, what kind of detail can you see? Are you only able to see the silhouette of the body and firearm, are there times when you cant make out the detail of another Agent's uniform, etc? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jbird Report post Posted October 8, 2012 Sure are alot of experts here. What I find interesting is that the only firefights in Az have been against each other. When the bad guys fire up our good guys they get away. All the people BP has shot in the past have been shot from behind and in the back AND they have been unarmed. There's a problem somewhere. They need to kill bad guys and not each other. Anybody who shoots at a cop should get killed - period. Right there and then. But these people are killing each other. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Non-Typical Solutions Report post Posted October 8, 2012 Sure are alot of experts here. What I find interesting is that the only firefights in Az have been against each other. When the bad guys fire up our good guys they get away. All the people BP has shot in the past have been shot from behind and in the back AND they have been unarmed. There's a problem somewhere. They need to kill bad guys and not each other. Anybody who shoots at a cop should get killed - period. Right there and then. But these people are killing each other. Maybe you could share your expert credentials...........there actually are a few of these guys who are fairly expert in the area..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstcoueswas80 Report post Posted October 8, 2012 Yes, because Colorado and Arizona are exactly the same. I was working that night, and at approximately 0130 hours, I was driving, and I can tell you there was very little to NO moon light. But you're right, what the moon was doing in COLORADO is exactly the same as it was doing in very much southern ARIZONA. Casey, When you are out there in the pitch dark looking thru the night vision, what kind of detail can you see? Are you only able to see the silhouette of the body and firearm, are there times when you cant make out the detail of another Agent's uniform, etc? It depends. Distance, how bright it is etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstcoueswas80 Report post Posted October 8, 2012 Even though Elkaholic insists that what his chart says, over me being out working in it that night, I can tell you it was very dark at 130 that morning. Maybe not pitch black, but very dark. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AZ8 Report post Posted October 8, 2012 None of us know what went down, but I'm not buying the friendly fire narrative. It just hit the news outlets too fast. There is something not right with this. The families deserve the truth. http://www.examiner.com/article/friendly-fire-or-is-the-fbi-off-target-again-with-agent-s-death-1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stanley Report post Posted October 8, 2012 Bottom line is that the investigation shows that the agents fired on each other. What ever the circumstances, it is a tragedy. What a crappy deal....... S. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jamaro Report post Posted October 8, 2012 They didn't have night vision... Btw Stanley - you are right, there are conspiracies theories all over the place and I get it, this IS the internet and i am not sure if people will ever be happy... One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is that the only brass that was for was agent brass... If it was a firefight there would be non-agent brass all over the place. I doubt these guys would have had time to pick it all up... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
