Dear G and F: Some food for thought.....

[Tines]

I debated on posting this. I rarely bag on the AZGFD (on a public forum, anyway ) but this one really hit a nerve.

 

My nephew drew an archery bull tag this year. It's his first. The kid loves to hunt. He also loves football. He's a senior and plays for his varsity high school football team. Pretty talented kid all-around. A couple of weeks ago he broke/dislocated his wrist during their game. They put it back in place and realized a little bit later that he needed to be in a hard cast, not the soft one he was in. Go figure, his new hard cast goes up to his bicep and drawing his bow is all but impossible. My brother contacted the game and fish trying to see if there was anything that could be done to salvage his hunt. Not the outcome they were hoping for.

 

Because it's not a "permanent disability", he won't qualify for a crossbow permit.

 

This got me thinking. How long is "permanent" and should each case be evaluated differently? To have a blanket policy of all "permanent" disabilities being the same is rather short-sighted, IMO.

 

I remember the moment my wife and I watched Oscar Pistorius from South Africa run during the 2012 Olympics. Amazing!! A double amputee that became "disabled" at such a very young age. Yet he's far from disabled. Modern technology provided him an opportunity (key word) to not only walk, but run. And run he did!!! Did he have an extra advantage over the other runners with his bionic legs? It was determined no. And I think anyone who watched would clearly agree.

 

Oscar didn't strike me as someone who was looking for an advantage over his peers, just an opportunity to compete. He had a great attitude towards everything. The Olympic panel took the time necessary to do the right thing and recognized the reprecussions of NOT considering Oscars case. We're all glad they did.

 

Now, would Oscar qualify for a CHAMP permit in AZ? He would. Yet Oscar is in better shape and runs faster than more than 6 billion other human beings! Does anyone else find this ridiculous??

 

I think it's time the department thinks about the ramifications of some of their policies. Is it too much to ask for a case by case evaluation? Will issuing a crossbow permit to a 17yr old boy who's unable to draw his bow for the time frame of his hunt create an unfair advantage over those who can? Maybe I'm naive but I'll bet every hunter would say "give the kid a dang crossbow permit!!"

 

AZGFD, you have an opportunity to think. Do it. Think about the definition of a "disability", what's really an advantage, and what's really not. This is a 17yr old boy asking for an opportunity to still shoot any old bull elk with an arrow, not a mzldr or a rifle. He just needs a little help with drawing and propelling that arrow. G and F, I think you know exactly what the right thing is to do.....

[firstcoueswas80]

Agree with this.

 

A good friend and fellow member rooted his bicep muscle from his arm this year and can not hunt hunt with a Cross bow for the same reason.

[Traveler]

Agree

 

This gadget save my Antelope bowhunt this year after I broke my wrist. - http://www.riparchery.com/

 

not sure if will work for your nephew, hopefully it was his release arm and not his bow arm. I set mine up and was shooting very good in a few hours right before my hunt with no issues. I had to have one overnighted to me. There are videos on their site of others shooting with full cast on their release arm.

[tjhunt2]

pm sent.

 

TJ

[SunDevil]

I was up in the Hondah store earlier this summer and met an elderly gentlemen who drew an archery bull tag for this year. he indicated to me that he got a permit to use a cross bow because he had recently had surgery on his rotator cuff. I didn't ask but I would assume that he would eventually recover from his surgery and that his condition was not "permanent". maybe he got some kind of note from his doctor regarding the permanentness (is that a word?) of his injury.

[reganranch]

I was up in the Hondah store earlier this summer and met an elderly gentlemen who drew an archery bull tag for this year. he indicated to me that he got a permit to use a cross bow because he had recently had surgery on his rotator cuff. I didn't ask but I would assume that he would eventually recover from his surgery and that his condition was not "permanent". maybe he got some kind of note from his doctor regarding the permanentness (is that a word?) of his injury.

 

Good info Sundevil. Yeah I dont know what G& F deal is, its not like the kid is asking to take a 338 lapua instead of a bow/crossbow. He payed for the tag and G&F gladly took his money without question. A cross bow is not going to increase the kids odds expodentially enough to matter. He still is struggling to walk in the forest with a hurt arm and will struggle getting down inclines,over logs, and other obstacles. Its not going to be easy by any standards. How about not being a tool/prick/ like every other Government agency we have, and give the kid a permit.

[bwakeling]

You know, I believe you have identified some great points that need to be considered. Crossbow permits and Challlenged Hunter Access/Mobility Permit are both governed by Article 2 rules (R12-4-216 and 217). When the governor and legislature do not limit rulemaking through moratorium, each rule is reviewed and revised at least once every 5 years by law. If you take your suggested changes and considerations and email them to rulemaking@azgfd.gov, they will be on file for the next rule review.

 

Unfortunately (or fortunately), we cannot simply amend rules without following the processes. It is a public process designed to provide the public with an opportunity to comment and review, and prevents decisions to be made without transparency. Because these are codified in rule, the Department's "deal" is that we have to follow the rule consistently. We don't have the ability to selectively apply the rules.

 

When you submit your comments, rulemaking can tell you when the next scheduled review of Article 2 rules will be.

 

Discussion forums are a great place to kick ideas around, but if you don't submit the comments, no one will know you've had the discussion.

 

Brian Wakeling

Game Branch Chief

[stanley]

You know, I believe you have identified some great points that need to be considered. Crossbow permits and Challlenged Hunter Access/Mobility Permit are both governed by Article 2 rules (R12-4-216 and 217). When the governor and legislature do not limit rulemaking through moratorium, each rule is reviewed and revised at least once every 5 years by law. If you take your suggested changes and considerations and email them to rulemaking@azgfd.gov, they will be on file for the next rule review.

 

Unfortunately (or fortunately), we cannot simply amend rules without following the processes. It is a public process designed to provide the public with an opportunity to comment and review, and prevents decisions to be made without transparency. Because these are codified in rule, the Department's "deal" is that we have to follow the rule consistently. We don't have the ability to selectively apply the rules.

 

When you submit your comments, rulemaking can tell you when the next scheduled review of Article 2 rules will be.

 

Discussion forums are a great place to kick ideas around, but if you don't submit the comments, no one will know you've had the discussion.

 

Brian Wakeling

Game Branch Chief

 

+ One! Brian, thanks much for providing your professional opinion.

 

S.

 

[Big Browns]

Thanks for explaining the process Brian. It's really nice to hear from G&F Officals on this site. Please continue to share your knowledge with us and help us understand the rules and policies of Arizona G&F.

 

Adam

[CouesWhitetail]

Thanks Brian, I always appreciate your help with these types of questions!

[Non-Typical Solutions]

I was up in the Hondah store earlier this summer and met an elderly gentlemen who drew an archery bull tag for this year. he indicated to me that he got a permit to use a cross bow because he had recently had surgery on his rotator cuff. I didn't ask but I would assume that he would eventually recover from his surgery and that his condition was not "permanent". maybe he got some kind of note from his doctor regarding the permanentness (is that a word?) of his injury.

So Brian,

In this case as give above are you saying that this elderly gentleman went through some sort of special process or maybe that was the way he applied for the tag. Crossbow elk tag???

[Tines]

You know, I believe you have identified some great points that need to be considered. Crossbow permits and Challlenged Hunter Access/Mobility Permit are both governed by Article 2 rules (R12-4-216 and 217). When the governor and legislature do not limit rulemaking through moratorium, each rule is reviewed and revised at least once every 5 years by law. If you take your suggested changes and considerations and email them to rulemaking@azgfd.gov, they will be on file for the next rule review.

 

Unfortunately (or fortunately), we cannot simply amend rules without following the processes. It is a public process designed to provide the public with an opportunity to comment and review, and prevents decisions to be made without transparency. Because these are codified in rule, the Department's "deal" is that we have to follow the rule consistently. We don't have the ability to selectively apply the rules.

 

When you submit your comments, rulemaking can tell you when the next scheduled review of Article 2 rules will be.

 

Discussion forums are a great place to kick ideas around, but if you don't submit the comments, no one will know you've had the discussion.

 

Brian Wakeling

Game Branch Chief

 

Brian,

 

Thanks for your response. I'll make sure to do this. It's too late to help him now but hopefully this can help someone in the furture.

[bwakeling]

_{Non-Typical brought up a point made by Sundevil. Unfortunately, I don't believe what was described was possible to authorize with existing rules - I see no reference to anything but permanent disabilities. It is impossible to verify that this occurred in fact without knowing names and datas. At the Department, we hear all the time about "My wife's sister's hairdresser's husband's best buddy always" ... fill in the blank. Sometimes it happened, but it may not have occurred the way it was described. I have no way to verify or dispute that this individual received a permit for crosssbow use, but it doesn't sound correct to me.}

 

_{Brian Wakeling}

_{Game Branch Chief}

[Non-Typical Solutions]

_{Non-Typical brought up a point made by Sundevil. Unfortunately, I don't believe what was described was possible to authorize with existing rules - I see no reference to anything but permanent disabilities. It is impossible to verify that this occurred in fact without knowing names and datas. At the Department, we hear all the time about "My wife's sister's hairdresser's husband's best buddy always" ... fill in the blank. Sometimes it happened, but it may not have occurred the way it was described. I have no way to verify or dispute that this individual received a permit for crosssbow use, but it doesn't sound correct to me.}

 

_{Brian Wakeling}

_{Game Branch Chief}

 

I bet you do get alot of stories for sure. My wife teaches 5th grade.

 

One day a student who rarely turns in her work came up to the desk and said. "I don't have my homework and I don't have my book, they both burned in a fire last night."

 

My wife reluctant to jump to any conclusions dismissed the issue as just another story only later to find out in fact the girls house had burned to the ground that night.

 

Stuff happens, thanks for your response.

[dusty]

I have a crossbow permit for this yrs elk hunt.I have a 40 yr old permanent arm injury documented with the VA.My VA doc just filled out the form and took it to the Mesa G@F ,no questions asked.I did get it done before I applied for archery,I thought it would be more difficult than it was.I have used a reg. bow in the past but with old age I d`ont have the strength to get it done anymore.I`m gratefull I have another way to go for it.I am going to use a 175 gr. slicktrick broadhead.