Lion Experiences

[CHD]

Relax everyone, I am outta here anyway. I think that is the point in my message, wasn't it obvious? Funny how just a few words can get under some people's hide real easily, hehehe, and how people can judge your whole lifestyle from them without even knowing you.

 

44 mostly pro-lion posts under 'lions' with much fewer under a deer topic just about says it all to me. Now I know why Arizona has a lion problem. Although I did get some useful info from this forum for a while, it just doesn't seem to be good for exchanging useful, hard-core info with knowledgeable hunters. I did get some good info about Coues deer from the rest of the site, though. Overall, this site is a pretty good resource for Coues deer. I even made a $$$ donation and bought stuff here (have any of you judgemental newbies done that?).

 

Amanda, please deactivate me now. Oh, and you can also delete my message in order to save the whole hunting world from the anti's.

 

Good luck on future hunts to all you hard-core buck hunters!

 

See ya.

[Guest Ernesto C]

CHD no body is telling here what to do,if you want to leave that is your decision but please allow me to tell you two things: a)your post (comment) was completly dessapointing,and why cant you leave your arrogance behind for one moment and say I'm sorry Your comment was offensive but I forgive you.

I had made mistakes before,some time my posts are incorrect and I'm glad somebody here gives me the correct info.

 

I dont care if a person is a mule deer hunter,white tail,elk,lion or bear etc etc. A true hunter always shows respect for the animal he or she hunts,a true hunter always go for one clean shot. I hope I dont have to explain to you what a "clean shot " means.

 

I hope I'm not offending you in any way,you are a mature man and you should stand as an example for us and for the future hunting generations.

 

I strongly recomend to you a Hunter Safety Course and also a talk to a biologist about predators he or she can explained to you why you shuld not over hunt predators,they are need it to keep a balance.

 

May the Lord bless you in all the apects of your life.

 

Ernesto C.

[CouesWhitetail]

Ok guys, I deleted a post by CHD where he made some personal attacks on some members and also edited another of his posts to remove some offensive comments. I left the majority of his post since it presents his opinions without attacking other members. Let's keep the posts civil please.

 

Amanda

[Guest Lark Hubbard]

i didn't get to see the paragraph by CHD that made folks mad, but i have to agree with most of what else he said. i'm only a guest here, but i'm a guest with some real experience. all wildlife in the lower 48 have to be managed. by building cities, highways, dams, ski runs, houseing developments, etc. the landscape is no longer wide open and is chopped up into smaller areas. each one has to be managed so as to keep it in the best shape it can be in. someplaces just don't support much wildlife. at least not game sized wildlife. predators have to be managed along with everything else. if you allow the boom and bust stuff to take place, the game seldom recovers to the population it had before the bust. better off setting a baseline and trying to maintain it. look at what happend to the strip some years ago. all because the game and fish refused to acknowledge a problem that it's own biologists notified them of. there wasn't even a deer season on the strip for years. not one permit was allowed. even today, 20 years later, there are very few permits available for the strip. and the lions died off too. nothing left for them to eat. they are a big neat animal. but there are probably more of them right now than there ever have been. and there is less game than in years past. less habitat, less water, less everything. if you see a lion and have a tag and don't shoot it, i think you're doing wildlife in general a disservice. nobody wants to see all of anything eradicated. and lions and coyotes are 2 things that never will be. they're too slick in their habits and too opportunistic in their ways. myself, i shoot everyone i see. don't see may lions, but when i do, i'm ready. this stuff going on in sabino right now worries me. this stupid governor is going to use this as a way to take over control of the g&f. hope she doesn't get it done. i've always maintained that the so called "wolf" reintroduction isn't about the wolves but just a toll for anti's to use to stop hunting. eventually they'll say there isn't enough game for the wolves (actually wolf/dog crosses. pure mexican grey wolves are extinct) and the hunters and shut down deer and elk hunting in those areas. simple arithmetic will tell you that. someone asked how to calculate what impact lions have on the deer herd. the g&f says there are 2500 lions. 2500x52=130,000. i know that doesn't figure in the cattle, elk, etc. that lions get, but it shows you the impact they have on a herd. they take 130,000 of something out every year. don't get down on someone for being passionate. passion is the only thing that will save hunting and anti's love to see us fight amongst ourselves.

[TREESTANDMAN]

It is hard to have a strong opinion on a subject of which you are fairly ignorant. I personally have not studied the lion impact on deer but I figure the F&G biologists who are paid to survey these impacts are doing there job and I trust there comments and judgment. I believe the drought has played a larger impact on deer herds than lions these past few years.

[COUESAZ]

Lark

I would agree with you on all you have said if you go back and read my posts on this subject you will find I have used some of the same stats about cat's that you have. Your name is very familiar to me as someone I have heard alot about. I am sure from what I have heard you do have the experience in the field. We just need to be careful how some things are worded on our posts I think if you could have read what was taken out it may have rubbed you a bit wrong to. The attack on a well known hunter and well respected hunter would have rubbed you wrong also. I am very passionate about hunting lions. I hope you will post here often and share some of your earned wisdome from the field with the rest of us. We are good guy's and good sportsmen that get heated up every now and then about our passions.

[elkmaniac]

There are quite a few things that have a direct impact on deer population as well as other species. They are: Drought (which affects browse, range, and water sources), Disease (CWD), Space, and Predators. We as hunters are in the catagory as predators. I haven't heard of anybody but the Almighty create rain. We aren't out there spreading diseases to dear heards. We do take away a little space every now and then, but there is still a whole lot of it. However, we do impact the population by hunting. Since we are in the same catagory as predators we compete over the same animals available to hunt. It has been said earlier that everything needs to be in balance, this is true. Since we cannot control at all how much rain is going to fall or how many deer are going to obtain a disease we are obligated to do are part in how many deer are killed by predators. Remember we are predators also. This is the battle that the Game and Fish fight every year. It should be obvious to everybody the decrease we have seen in the distribution of tags that we apply for each year. The way I look at it is like this. Since we can't control the uncontrollable impacts, we need to do our part in controlling the predators, and that includes us as hunters. IF a lion eats 52 deer a year and we kill that lion, there will be 52 more deer on the field officer's deer count which MAY directly influence the amount of tags given for their unit. Us as hunters have a huge responsibility in helping control the influence of predators. If we said to the Game and Fish "give us more tags in this unit and we will kill three lions so that the numbers stay where you need them to be", they would just laugh, but if we kill the three lions and they do their deer counts and notice the possible increase in deer population for that area, we MIGHT see more tags available. That is just what I believe, it makes sense to me, but I may be way in right field.

p.s. I'm just using the lion as an example of a predator. We all know there are other predators out there that have an effect.

Chris Jacob

[TREESTANDMAN]

I just wish it were slightly easier to see much less kill a lion without dogs.

[Guest Lark Hubbard]

i think if people got the opportunity to spend some time with a lion hunter and see what goes into training and keeping a good string of hounds, there would be much less animosity toward houndmen and their dogs. there are some fly-by-nighters that don't help out as far as reputation. there are very few good lion hunters left. it's more work, takes more time, costs more money and pays less than anything i've ever done. most lion hunters have been through several marriages and been bankrupt more than once because they get addicted to something that's worse than crack. but they are neccesary. but believe me, spend some time with a guy with topshelf hounds, who knows what he's doing, and you'll see there's a lot more to it that just turning out a bunch of kurrs and waiting for them to tree. they're hunters, just like the rest of us. cut em a break. soon it'll go the way of trapping if we allow it. enough people get "offended" and they'll outlaw it. the loss of public land trapping has had a lot to do with the rise in predator population. if hunting with hounds is lost it, will be a detriment also. spend a week or so in the saddle, all day every day, and when you finally hear the echo of your hounds barkin' treed coming down the canyon to you, you'll see what i mean. it's a great sport. and you have to work at it 365 days a year. 366 this year.

[TREESTANDMAN]

That is exactly my point. I highly respect hunters that use hounds, I just don't have the money and time to invest. My uncle runs hounds up in the whitemountains, maybe one of these days I can convince him to take me out to run some cats.

[COUESAZ]

Lark

you are right on with that . A guy cant just get a bunch of dogs and run them once a month. The dogs we run don't even go a week without running if not for a hunter Or to get its picture taken by someone it is for the dogs. It is for us to you can't let your self get used to watching tv on the week ends or you are sure to die an early death of a heart attack. We are even out durring the week watching our tracks and washes. You have to get to the point where you know what day and what wash you will find the tom you want or the tom you dont want . What people don't understand to is when you kill one another is not far behind to move in and take over. We have one spot that just keeps producing good lions in it.

[COUESAZ]

Just me again so soon. Did anyone else see the dorks on the news today about the lions in sabino canyon. They talked to a lady that said the reasone that we see them so much is the incroachment of homes on there habitat and it is the fault of the people that build those houses. She lives in flagstaff and said she sees them in her comunity when she goes out walking. She said her comunity is built like the one down in sabino. I guess only the builder is to blame in her eyes Not herself for buying one of those homes .she just bought one of those houses to enjoy the woods more. so much spoken like a true tree hugger that I just want to smack her. I just get a kick out of those folks that complain against polution and drive a car to the protest. You know what im talking about.

 

ENOUGH please.

[couesdog]

How about this theory?

I believe that the number one cause for a dwindling deer population is the range conditions. These poor conditions have been severely impacted by drought throughout the last decade. The drought has been compounded by the lack of effort from the Forest Service to reduce cattle numbers and though the Game and Fish has reduced the elk population in recent years, it is still higher than the carrying capacity. When the bulk grass is gone, elk and cattle have no choice but to eat the browse and forbs that the deer herds rely on (both mule deer and whitetail).

Yes predators play a role as well, but larger predators such as lions, are for the most part, keeping the herds at the capacity of the land. For example, a lion may kill 52 deer sized animals a year, this includes elk, cattle, javelina, pets, porcupines etc... More realistically, a lion may kill on the high end 20 deer per year. Of those 20 deer killed, 15 of them may die anyways because of the poor range conditions (arent the weak and old easier to kill anyways?).

If you look at your favorite unit's fawn crops in the last five years than you will see why the deer herds are dieing. In some units, less than 10% of the does raised an independent fawn. This is because either, the doe was to unhealthy to bear young and aborted the fetus, the doe gave birth to a weak fawn that did not find enough energy to survive, or the doe gave birth to a healthy fawn, but had nowhere to hide it cause the grass was all gone and the coyotes gobbled it up. This makes the main culprit the coyote, not the lion. Regardless, the reproduction is not keeping up with the mortality and that is most likely attributed to overall poor range conditions and not Mt. Lions. But just in case, I did harvest a lion a few years ago!

[TREESTANDMAN]

How did you get the lion? Dogs, calling, random ?

[couesdog]

I have had over a dozen chance encounters with lions. I missed two and finally got one after I called it in. It was in unit 8.