Lion Experiences

[galiuro mountain man]

vml,

Use calls, or a lot of glassing. When calling take someone with you to help you look for them, they are tough animals to spot. The only other way to do it is to get lucky or use dogs.

 

azguide,

Iknow what you meen about unit 32, I have hunted the same area for going on 8 years now, and I can see the damage lions have done there. There were 2 lions taken from the area this past winter, but I believe there are 2 more in this one set of canyons, 1 big male and 1 small female.

 

Lion experiences, where to start, Ive been stalked twice, once in unit 32 by a single cat, and once in 31 by a pair, I think it was a mother and about a 6 month old cub. I saw the lions both times. The pair only got 60-70 yards from me. The single cat was about 20 yards behind me when I heard it, then saw it right behind me in some brush right off the trail I was on, so I pulled back my bow and tried to get around the brush to get a shot but it ran off. Other than that, I have glassed 2 and seen one between safford and globe on the highway.

 

I just started hunting them this year, but all the times I went out the weather was bad and made it hard to call them in.

 

GMM

[Diamondbackaz]

I believe the drought conditions have taken a toll on the deer populatons especially Mule deer. How does one know how much toll Lions have on the deer populatons?

[COUESAZ]

All I know is an area in 34B that used to have a nice herd of coues started to just disapear. I watched this herd for about 8 years total. A friend and I would hike in there every day in highschool. If we did not have a football game we were on the mtn. We noticed after about 4 years they were seen getting smaller and smaller. After about 8 years we did not see a one. Now we were not out ther every day anymore by then we just went up a few times. We have killed two lions in there in the last couple of years. Last year we saw some deer back in that spot and a couple of nice bucks. I do know to that a lion will be moved back in that spot with in two years. It will then start killing it's one deer per week. I just can guess by what I have seen that I think they can kill a herd fast at a deer a week.

[Guest Ernesto C]

Hey Diamondbackaz like I mentioned before for two years in a row I hunted 17A,found several javelina and deer bones,skulls etc etc.some of them really fresh,about every 100 yds or so you will find a lion kill. You also can see lion scat and tracks all around that specific canyon. It was october and it was raining and snowing a lot,every creek had water so I dont think drought had something to do in this case and after the lion encouter my brother had there was no doubt abou it what was responsible on this killings.

 

Several members on this site had seen lions in the past four months if the deer herd is declining I'm sure is a combination of several factors and one of them the increasing in lion population;and remember there is more predators also not only lions.

 

Ernesto C.

[Diamondbackaz]

Well I am certainly no scientist here, but lions have been hunting these deer for thousands of years way before the white man came here along with modern firearms and game managment. There is no question that lions are going to impact populations and killing a lion will increase populaton. Simple cause and effect. However, we have gone through some serious climatic changes lately and wildfires also play a role. I personally think lions are all over where ever there is deer. Simple assumptions built on certain observations cannot be turned in scientific conclusions. Go to this site http://websites.aero.net/cyoung/research/kaibab/story1.html and click on "more of the story" when you finish reading the page your on. Read the whole story. The Kaibab deer incident is an excellent example of how even research can be wrong/

[COUESAZ]

I fill the same way. Who knows what is to blame. I am not even saying they killed all those deer in the herd. All I think in answer to your question above . Yes the lack of water has hert them very bad. My answer above was that I could only guess And a guess would never lead to scientific conclusion at all. It was only saying I wonder if the lions being in the same canyon would make them move out of the area to a saffer place to reside. Now the lions are gone for now and they are back into those feeding grounds they used to be in.

 

A drought also makes life easy for a lion because it consetrates more food in a smaller area when deer are going to water in the same spot a a bunch of deer. As we all know when we have lots of water a deer will drink it in his own canyon. When it is not there they will travel to get it. I have watched the same herd of does In 34B travel about 2 miles every day to the same water hole For about 12 years now. This year I did not see them, And when I went to the water it had no water. So yes the lack of water will make them go away to. So just abit more for us to think about. No matter what we are all in the same boat something is taking our deer away from us And for some it's not us taking them right.

[Diamondbackaz]

I will have to agree with you that the drought does make it easier for predation when water sources become limited. My two favorite areas in 36B has had a major population decrease. I feel part of the problem has been disturbance by illegals, but who knows.

Edited January 1, 1970 by Diamondbackaz

[Rembrant]

How 'bout this thoery:

Historically when deer populations boom, the lion populations boom with them.

When the deer populations bust, the lion numbers would go down as well - given that a deer is the lions prefered food. (Ecology 101).

Now days when the mule deer and whitetails are doing well, the lion numbers are strong also. And when the deer population takes a nose dive, the big cats are gonna suffer too, right?

WRONG!

Why not? 'Cause when a modern lion can't find a deer to eat, he can eat cattle - an animal that wasn't here historically. The cats can also eat elk that have expanded their range to virtually everywhere there is appropriate grass and shade. If that isn't enough, the javelina has also greatly expanded its range over the last century.

Today's mountain lion has a whole bunch of boom and no bust! Even if we get a lot of rainy years on end, our deer will still have this heavy paw on their rebounding efforts, because a deer IS a lion's prefered food.

Too bad John Q. (Disney watching) Public thinks that the mountain is a rare animal that needs our protection.

Mike

[Diamondbackaz]

There is no question that the influence of ranching has forever changed the ecology or "balance of nature", and it's hard to tell what that effect it has been since there is probably little data on what things were like before ranching came along. I have to disagree with the "no bust", mountain lions are hunted and are bagged which is something that didn't happen a lot before modern firearms, tracking dogs, and varment calls.

[Guest Guest_Coueshunter84]

I had a nice little lion encounter this year. Back in January while chasing pigs, We came across a little pond being fed by an artesian well that was overflowing. As we were still hunting the thickets for pig we were playing sneaky. As we peeked over the river bank to the pond below, the fellow that I was hunting with whispered that he thought he seen something under a Salt Ceder about 20 yards away. I looked and so did he, neither of us seeing anything. We made our way further down the bank eventually standing right above the Salt Ceder in question. About 20 feet right below us right on a trail that dropped off the bank at our feet. We stood there for about 5 minutes deciding whether we were going to drop off the bank and start hunting the river or not. Eventually we decided to drop off and hunt the bottoms.

As he stepped off the bank the cat came out from under that Salt Ceder. Luckily going the other way. We had stood within 20 feet of this cat for at least 5 minutes and never knew he was there. It was definately a Tom and I guessed him at about 120-130 lbs. His first jump took him about 25 feet and he crossed 56 yards in 3 bounds and was back in the thick stuff before either of us could get ourselves gathered for a shot.

This is only the 3rd cat I have seen in the wild and definately the biggest. Just about scared me out of my wits.

Another friend of mine and I went back in the same spot with one of his lion dogs. We went back in just last week. We found a smaller cat dead. This one was about 30-40 lbs. and had been on the ground about 6 days. A little ways away we found the bigger cats tracks. only about 2 days old. This cat has a nice little area for himself, and apparently a new female. Hopefully here sometime we will be able to get him in one way or another.

[DBArcher]

This is the only lion experience I have to talk about.

 

http://www.trophyphotos.com/imagedetail.php?photoid=9590

[CouesWhitetail]

I have seen lots of lions over the years. Most of them have been on the San Carlos reservation since I spent so much time there and they have so many lions. And most of those lion encounters were with groups of lions. The largest group was 4 and I believe it was a female with two different sets of litters. Two of the young were about the same size as the female and a third young was about 1/2-3/4 her size and still had some spots on the inside of its front legs. I got to watch that group for about 25 mins at less than 100 yards. They were in an area of very high deer density. I have also seen one group of three lions (a female and two almost grown young) and a few singles. And you guys probably already saw the photos of the group of two which I saw on my last rez deer hunt. I still don't know if that was a mating pair or male and female siblings. That was one of the best encounters I have had with lions since I got to watch them for probably more than 30 mins and they were only 300 yards or so from me. I have also handled mountain lions to put radio collars on them for tracking. They are very impressive animals. Solid muscle and pure killing machines. And I have seen them from helicopters during aerial surveys for deer.

 

I agree with Rembrant that predator densities can be maintained at a high level because of the availability of cattle. I think lions and coyotes exist at higher densities than they could if there were no cattle available. That is especially true in areas where cattle are not well managed.

 

And personally I enjoyed reading about the lion story that Josh posted where they were close to the lions and yet didn't kill them. Lions are magnificient animals and such a rare treat to see. I am a hunter and would be glad to get a lion, but I also don't feel the need to shoot at everything out there just because I see it. I value my encounters with wildife with or without a gun. (and suggesting that Josh doesn't kill enough mt. lions is seriously misguided since he and his father hunt lions all the time with their dogs). I don't see how a Coues deer hunter can't respect a mountain lion since a lion is a far better Coues hunter than we will ever be. I am not saying everyone should let lions walk, but I think it's out of line to complain that a hunter decided not to shoot. That's kind of like complaining about someone not killing a spike buck when they are looking for something larger. Or complaining that someone didn't take a shot at a deer when they felt they might wound it. The choice to shoot or not shoot is up to the hunter. It depends on the experience he or she is looking for.

 

Amanda

[Diamondbackaz]

Amanda, well stated//

[COUESAZ]

Amanda

You are right on with what you have to say. As I read back on all of my posts on this subject and the others I think we have all hit it on the head. It is all personal choice . As much as I like to hunt lions. It is still impresive to me every time I see one. And you are right also about them beeing the king of coues deer hunting ( right after me that is.) One of the guy's that guide for me just sent me a picture of a big old boy setting right infront of a mine opening It is a great picture. I am going to use it as the wall paper on my computer .

[TREESTANDMAN]

Has anyone ever heard of the "Picketed Goat tactic"? I don't know if it is legal but you would picket a goat and sit a treestand all day. The goat will make a lot of racket and attract mountain lions and whatever other predators are in the area.