THE RIFLEMAN Report post Posted August 16, 2012 There well known players pushing for this bait ban , hunters and people in the hunting buisness.... I know of one who activly goes to the meetings and has pursued this for several years... Arhery buisness owner EV ..... Does he have the bullocks to come on here and speak up ?????? I personally think everyone should salt and grain deer and elk! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coues 'n' Sheep Report post Posted August 16, 2012 Queers'n'Sheep, although I hate your guts, and think you are a idiot! I do have to agree with you on this issue... And.... my point.... We all have common ground here... and we must all stand together on the topics that continue to pick away at our way of life. Moral of the story is: If a douch bag & key board pitbull, like Lance and a guy like me can agree here, on this one topic, then so should you all. Please join your fellow hunter and write letters to anyone and everyone, go to the Commision meetings, and fight for all hunting not just your hunting. This is our state and our wildlife we should have access to it wether we are an able bodied young man or a crippled old man, or whatever... we should all have a chance to do the best we can and acheive our deams in the outdoors. Cheers! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arizona Report post Posted August 17, 2012 Queers'n'Sheep, although I hate your guts, and think you are a idiot! I do have to agree with you on this issue... And.... my point.... We all have common ground here... and we must all stand together on the topics that continue to pick away at our way of life. Moral of the story is: If a douch bag & key board pitbull, like Lance and a guy like me can agree here, on this one topic, then so should you all. Please join your fellow hunter and write letters to anyone and everyone, go to the Commision meetings, and fight for all hunting not just your hunting. This is our state and our wildlife we should have access to it wether we are an able bodied young man or a crippled old man, or whatever... we should all have a chance to do the best we can and acheive our deams in the outdoors. Cheers! What about people who are NOT in agreement with: private/commercial surveillance systems on public land guides/outfitters on public land (there are no limits) public resources (e.g. hunting permits) going to highest bidder people camping on public land waters (e.g. trucks, tree stands, and blinds) baiting wildlife of on public land people littering the woods There are too many people in general and specifically too many people who are for the aforementioned bullet points. It getting pretty hard to "stand together" these days, what about preserve hunting in a more natural environment? How about the tread lightly or better 'leave no trace' principle??? Lets hope an AZ govenment institution like the AZGFD can manage wildlife better than a federal institution like the USFS can mangage forests (e.g. forest roads). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DesertBull Report post Posted August 17, 2012 What about people who are NOT in agreement with: private/commercial surveillance systems on public land guides/outfitters on public land (where there are no limits) public resources (i.e. hunting permits) going to highest bidder people camping on public land waters (e.g. trucks, tree stands, and blinds) baiting wildlife of on public land people who litter the woods Understood, but my personal philosophy is to not participate in activities I do not believe in or have interest in and try to refrain from telling other people how to pursue game. If you have a tag, you are legal to kill an animal. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arizona Report post Posted August 17, 2012 What about people who are NOT in agreement with: private/commercial surveillance systems on public land guides/outfitters on public land (where there are no limits) public resources (i.e. hunting permits) going to highest bidder people camping on public land waters (e.g. trucks, tree stands, and blinds) baiting wildlife of on public land people who litter the woods Understood, but my personal philosophy is to not participate in activities I do not believe in or have interest in and try to refrain from telling other people how to pursue game. If you have a tag, you are legal to kill an animal. Use a helicopter??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arizona Report post Posted August 17, 2012 Use a helicopter??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DesertBull Report post Posted August 17, 2012 No, I would not use a helicopter. Even though it is legal in some states. I also have no interest in chasing hounds around the mountains but don't tell anyone else not to do it. I have no interest in jumping in a river and catching fish by hand, but don't tell others not to do it. I have no interest in shooting prairie dogs or anything else I cannot eat, but would never tell anyone else not to do it. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ready2hunt Report post Posted August 17, 2012 Use a helicopter??? Using a helicopter to scout/take game is illegal anyway in AZ. +1 DesertBull Although I might still voice my opinon I would voice it with the understanding that it is worth what it cost me to give $0.00 and would be mindful not to ruin another hunters experience. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
THE RIFLEMAN Report post Posted August 17, 2012 What about people who are NOT in agreement with: private/commercial surveillance systems on public land guides/outfitters on public land (where there are no limits) public resources (i.e. hunting permits) going to highest bidder people camping on public land waters (e.g. trucks, tree stands, and blinds) baiting wildlife of on public land people who litter the woods Understood, but my personal philosophy is to not participate in activities I do not believe in or have interest in and try to refrain from telling other people how to pursue game. If you have a tag, you are legal to kill an animal. What are you interested in?!!!! How do you hunt with a short spear and a trained ferret???? LOL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DesertBull Report post Posted August 17, 2012 uhm.....ok Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OpticNerd Report post Posted August 17, 2012 +1 on a lot of what Arizona said. It was brought up in an earlier post something to the effect that we don't need anymore G&F laws and regulations that we had enough as it is. Well for many of us the same concept could be applied to hunting. We don't need any more new techno gear, equipment and extreme tactics in hunting. What's wrong with leaving hunting the way it is or even better yet the hunting was 20 or 30 years ago? The more new advanced technology and methods that are used the more new laws and regulations the G&F have to come up with to insure proper game management. The argument of letting people hunt the way they want to hunt just doesn't work. Imagine if your playing golf in a golf tournament and one of the players decides instead of hitting the ball with his club he going to use a golf ball launching sling shot instead. When you and other players confront this guy to tell him this isn't the way we play golf what would happen if he says "this is the way I want to play golf. I don't tell you guys how to play so you can't tell me how to play". Wouldn't work would it otherwise there would be nothing but chaos. The same principle applies with hunting we need rules and regulations to keep everything in balance and in harmony as best as possible. The idea that we hunters all need to stick together and fight this or else keeps getting brought up and I still have to disagree. It would be different if it was something majority of us hunters agreed on but I'm going out on a limb and saying that close to majority of AZ hunters would like to see baiting go. It might not seem that way here on CW but a lot of the hunters I know that are for the baiting ban don't voice their opinion on the web. Would all you "we hunters need to stick together" guys support me if I was getting a petition going to legalize road hunting deer and night with the use of big high powered spot lights because this is the way I want to hunt deer? Probably not. Like I said earlier I do believe hunters need to stick together as best as possible but to imply if we don't pull together and oppose this ban then it will only lead to more things outlawed is a bit of a stretch. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OpticNerd Report post Posted August 17, 2012 I find it Ironic that the AZGFD and the pushers of this rule have no issue with forms of hunting which bare "advantage", tactics that they personally use. I find it sad that the WM's that are the driving force (and have been for some time) are fellow hunters. Years ago when I began speaking with some of these guys on this topic (in central AZ), they were for banning bait because bow hunters were killing too many deer (most of which were in country that rifle hunters could not productively hunt). Your spot and stalk hunters hunt the country that is more conducive for rifle hunters and have the lowest success amongst bow hunters. My argument to them was always that we are hunting different deer populations and the response was that it was too much success and an unfair advantage. Yet they will hunt over water, use spotting scopes, and big guns... Let’s face it folks!! We all like our “personal advantage”!!! This argument has gone on soooo long and so many hunters have picked up the tactic in recent years that the amount of attractants being purchased by hunters and placed in the woods has doubled, maybe even tripled! For Example: Unit 22 north in January has so many different forms of attractant every square mile that the “advantage has literally Vanished!! I think hunter success in the January bow hunt has almost decreased in unit 22 and if not it has certainly stabilized, even though more hunters than ever are hunting it each January! The “advantage” is not nearly as great as it once was and frankly on some deer it is a deterrent and not an advantage at all! Pretty interesting when at least one doe that comes in looks up at every tree looking for a hunter…. HaHaHa… We as hunters extinguish our advantages by over use and poor practices, that is why the sport continues to evolve and new “advantages” are discovered. EVERY piece of hunting gear we use could be called "unfair" by someone!!! I know old traditional bow hunters who hate just about every other form of hunting and consider it all to be less than honorable.... I respect their opinion, but I completely disagree!! I think we all have to respect one another and our individual participation or ability in the field. Example... I have a good friend who is disabled... he has an early archery bull tag this year, and is going to be hunting with a crossbow and a champ permit. I think he should be able to use every "advantage" under the sun to fulfill his hunt expectations. All hunters should be able to use any method of hunting that not only allows them success but also a fulfilling hunting experiences. Now I know this can also be misconstrued to the point of being over board… but what I mean is that all hunters regardless of age, sex, or physical ability should have the opportunity to succeed, to not only get to experience the outdoors, but to harvest. AZGFD loves to use the word “opportunity”, however their definition of it does not include success for the hunter, just the opportunity to attempt success. And let’s face it… Even if we employ EVERY “advantage” known to man it does not guarantee us success. There are folks every year that do not fill tags in the Premier “trophy” hunts, the hunts that by some would be referred to as “slam Dunk” hunting opportunities with a happy ending. Lastly…. CWD…. Come on… if trick tanks and salt licks are not the biggest threat for the spread of any saliva borne disease then I don’t know what is… Let’s just leave it as it is we don’t need any more rules or laws!!! Big Government SUCKS and this is just another example of the Government wanting us to do as they see fit!!! This is really no different than outlawing large fountain drinks…WHY? WHY? WHY!!!!!!!! Some very interesting stuff here especially the part about the significant increase of attractants being used now days and how it effects the baiting advantage. Makes since to me the more attractants being used the less effective they will be. Seems like the popularity of baiting is growing year after year if this keeps up imagine what it will be like in 5 to 10 years. By this time baiting might not work at all due to the over use. Have any of you other guys noticed a decline in the effectiveness of baiting over the past few years? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ready2hunt Report post Posted August 17, 2012 Opticnerd: I will not speak for DesertBull (althout I imagine he would agree) but the reference to letting people hunt the way they want did not include illegal activities. My reference did include baiting however as this is what the core discussion is about. You used an interesting analogy "Golf tournament." Suppose we do use this...when playing golf every participate has the option to use the club he/she wishes and it is up to them to judge what is most effective. I would not tell another person what they are doing wrong unless they asked or I felt that it could better their experience. In such a sitution I would do it in the manner that would not ruin their time of enjoyment. Furthermore, just like hunting I do not tell other hunters how to hunt. Whether it be over water, in a treestand, over salt or even a pile of corn. It is up to them as long as it is done legally. In addition to this we (in the West) we have a different culture of hunting versus that of the East. We have an abundance of open area and networks of roads for access. Many area in the East hunt exclusively over bait, plots or farm fields....are they any less ethical than we are? I would venture to say no they have just adapted a method of hunting that suits the area and they do it quite well. There is law and case law to everything....I think we can agree its not all black and white. As for your baiting effectiveness question....I love putting blocks and corn out and have never seen a difference nor has my family who run cattle ranches/hunting outfits. Animals may become wary of areas perhaps there is excessive calling or hunting pressure but they will always come to food eventually especially when it is scare. Just like the watering hole concept. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OpticNerd Report post Posted August 17, 2012 Good points made ready2hunt. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gotcoues Report post Posted August 17, 2012 I would have to venture a guess that "the majority of hunters agree with the proposal to ban" is speculation at best and standing on a thin limb. Now, on the other hand if you were to say the majority of rifle only hunters don't like archer's baiting I could digest that and strongly disagree with their possible motives. Optic Nerd, you also pointed out how what if people go back to tactics used 20 or 30 yrs ago. My question is, what is stopping you? If you want to hike the hills with iron sights and no binoculars I think you should. I also think, no one should be able to tell you not to do that. I feel this discussion is not whether you like or don't like the tactic of baiting, it's about enough is enough with new laws and new regulations. If the archers are becoming too successful, then set harvest limits rather than to pick and choose how one should hunt. How would rifle hunters like it if someone said nothing over a 300 yard shot is ethical and by law you are forbidden to do so. Would all the tradition archers with recurve equipment shout hooray and it's about time? I highly doubt it. Another detail that I missed in skimming over all the post is archers are expanding their ranges to long long distances. My assumption is baiting would tend to provide a much more ethical shot than long range spot and stalk. I highly doubt people who spot and stalk attempt to get 20 yards from a coues deer and I would assume the opposite for someone sitting a bait pile. If indeed baiting is so wide spread, you also have an economic impact (minor at best) that would have to be a positive. Using more gasoline, buying feed etc.. I strongly disagree with the proposal of a baiting ban and would like to see mandatory harvest reporting of rifle and archery deer to better look at the numbers. Also, like I mentioned before, most Aug/Sep bowhunters have two deer tags they have paid for and if one does not go down by an arrow, one can still go down with a bullet. So the too much success is a weak statement when the rifle is brought in as back up if they are unsuccessful. Conservative point of view. " I don't like it, therefore I shall not do it" Liberal point of view. "I don't like it, therefore I'll try like heck to make sure no one can do it." 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
