Arizona Bait Ban - AZGF wants "Bait" ban

[bonuspointjohn]

Excellent points. I agree that there are bigger issues. The overall point I guess I'm trying to make is that everyone wants to preserve percieved "rights" based on principle instead of science. If we walk into a commission meeting with an arguement for baiting based on pure principle and the dept provides scientific facts based on the mule deer working group studies (which is exactly what they will do) then the commission will laugh at us. Everyone wants to sit and use these arguements based on principle and "more laws"... Guys, that is not what will win this battle. Get on muledeerworkinggroup.org or read some of the elk studies and battle facts with facts. What I would do is along the same lines as the last posters comments. I'd hit them back with predator issues and show how much more of a problem it is than baiting. That's where we need to be pushing the dept. The dept avoids the predator problem like its cancer. We need to keep pushing them on it.

the 3 bar wildlife area ( walnut canyon enclosure ) should be an excellent example of predation! Put a fence up and keep out the deer killers and those heards #s will increase. I think last time I was there there still are collard deer there and there were students from Texas doing a study and surveys on them. It seems they addressed the predator issue a little by rebuilding 1 of the tanks up there and allowing night mnt lion hunting in that area, so they obviously know it's an issue. I don't have a problem with the "bait ban" but it won't stop there! I agree, if it is about ethics and fair chase then say so!! It would be cool to be a fly on the wall behind closed doors of the big wigs at the G&F office... we can speculate all we want on what there agendas truly are but unless we here it straight from the horses mouth it's only speculation and that drives up the price of oil from what they say.

 

James

 

the ADA helped fund that study with the help of Texas Tech students. The last part of the monitoring came a few years back and Amanda and I spent time in the area . They had inserted 20 does with IUD's that were expelled upon birth of the fawns. The Texas Tech crew then went out and attempted to collar the new born fawns. After collaring, the crew kept checking them until a mortality occurred and then they went to the collar site to determine what had killed them. The usual suspects were of course predators. It was a very worthwhile study, but the key factor in the 3Bar was that there were NO PREDATORS at all in the enclosure. It was hot tough work and those students earned their keep. Cruising along on foot in the desert in July without wearing Gators was a true testament to their passion. One morning climbing those hills convinced me that those kids were really tough and in great shape. BPJ

[bojangles]

Anything i can do to help stop this from passing, please let me know.

 

I like to use corn from time to time because i don't have time or money to take 3 weeks off work to glass, spot and stalk. I wish i did, but i have 3 kids that need their daddy. So, a pile of corn means i can have a legit whitetail or turkey hunting experience each season. If i can get an animal coming in and on camera, i can hunt a morning or afternoon here and there and hopefully get a shot. Right now in my life, it almost like no bait, no hunt.

 

Hopefully it wont always be this way. I'd like to say one day i could afford to take 3 weeks off work and get it done that way, but till then, a corn pile it is.

 

I don't have a pile of scientific facts i've collected over 52 years of study and careful observation to present to the decision makers, but i'll do what i can.

[azstroops]

Typical Libs, if I don't like it get rid of it! If you don't like it don't do it. i don't care for people shooting game at a 1000 yards but I would never tell another sportsman how hunting should be done. I just don't do it and stand by the sportmen as long as it is a legal method. Every ban/restriction passed, one less freedom we have as Americans. What's next???

[654321]

sure see alot of comments about gov. regulation taking freedom away ect. don't see to many people complaining about the change that will allow 2 pigs a year, or the law passed last year that opened lots of public land around urban areas to hunting, some people excited about suprresor law passed and magazine capacity, I do think CWD is wrong way to try and say baiting is going to be the reason it gets here, Utah allows baiting and they have CWD doubt baiting is the reason they have it, Colorado no baiting guess what it probably started there or wy., new mexico has CWD, IMO when az. gets CWD it will be from a migrating deer from southern utah, az be better off building 14ft. fence around border to keep CWD out rather than ban baiting, if a harvest issue put units like 23 and 22 to draw to limit harvest, imo.

[bonut]

This baiting topic is interesting with some informative posts but there are other things in play that are unfairly taking away opportunity from bowhunters that need to be addressed with Game and Fish as well. Bowhunters in Arizona are currentely limited to 20% of the deer harvest in each unit. If we take more than 20% in any given unit they remove opportunity (remove December seasons in units 22 & 23, take other units to a draw, etc.). Unfotunately, hunting in general is declining while bowhunting is growing and as long as bowhunting is tied to a set percentage we will continue to lose opportunity. The 20% allowable harvest for archery deer should change according to the amount of archery deer hunters vs. other weapon types just like the draw allocation system changes to make it fair for all weapon types. Archery deer hunters currently make up over 25% (and this % will likely rise yearly) of the deer hunter so shouldn't we get 25% of the harvest? I am not saying take away from the other weapon types because most of us hunt with multiple weapon types but don't unfairly take away opportunity from bowhunters either. I know this is a little off the emotional topic of baiting but it is just common sense and not all bowhunters are aware of it.

[Tines]

I'm all for sound game management based on scientific data. But lately it seems that ulterior motives are the driving force in rule making (i.e. money, success rates, "more opportunity").

 

How's this for sound game management: "Boy, we sure saw a lot of deer in 'unit X' when we flew over this year. Let's increase the permits by 20%." We must consider unintended consequences, IMO. And I think that's been forgotten in our own slogan of "managing today for wildlife tomorrow".

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

I find it Ironic that the AZGFD and the pushers of this rule have no issue with forms of hunting which bare "advantage", tactics that they personally use. I find it sad that the WM's that are the driving force (and have been for some time) are fellow hunters. Years ago when I began speaking with some of these guys on this topic (in central AZ), they were for banning bait because bow hunters were killing too many deer (most of which were in country that rifle hunters could not productively hunt). Your spot and stalk hunters hunt the country that is more conducive for rifle hunters and have the lowest success amongst bow hunters. My argument to them was always that we are hunting different deer populations and the response was that it was too much success and an unfair advantage. Yet they will hunt over water, use spotting scopes, and big guns... Let’s face it folks!! We all like our “personal advantage”!!! This argument has gone on soooo long and so many hunters have picked up the tactic in recent years that the amount of attractants being purchased by hunters and placed in the woods has doubled, maybe even tripled! For Example: Unit 22 north in January has so many different forms of attractant every square mile that the “advantage has literally Vanished!! I think hunter success in the January bow hunt has almost decreased in unit 22 and if not it has certainly stabilized, even though more hunters than ever are hunting it each January! The “advantage” is not nearly as great as it once was and frankly on some deer it is a deterrent and not an advantage at all! Pretty interesting when at least one doe that comes in looks up at every tree looking for a hunter…. HaHaHa… We as hunters extinguish our advantages by over use and poor practices, that is why the sport continues to evolve and new “advantages” are discovered. EVERY piece of hunting gear we use could be called "unfair" by someone!!! I know old traditional bow hunters who hate just about every other form of hunting and consider it all to be less than honorable.... I respect their opinion, but I completely disagree!! I think we all have to respect one another and our individual participation or ability in the field. Example... I have a good friend who is disabled... he has an early archery bull tag this year, and is going to be hunting with a crossbow and a champ permit. I think he should be able to use every "advantage" under the sun to fulfill his hunt expectations. All hunters should be able to use any method of hunting that not only allows them success but also a fulfilling hunting experiences. Now I know this can also be misconstrued to the point of being over board… but what I mean is that all hunters regardless of age, sex, or physical ability should have the opportunity to succeed, to not only get to experience the outdoors, but to harvest. AZGFD loves to use the word “opportunity”, however their definition of it does not include success for the hunter, just the opportunity to attempt success. And let’s face it… Even if we employ EVERY “advantage” known to man it does not guarantee us success. There are folks every year that do not fill tags in the Premier “trophy” hunts, the hunts that by some would be referred to as “slam Dunk” hunting opportunities with a happy ending. Lastly…. CWD…. Come on… if trick tanks and salt licks are not the biggest threat for the spread of any saliva borne disease then I don’t know what is… Let’s just leave it as it is we don’t need any more rules or laws!!! Big Government SUCKS and this is just another example of the Government wanting us to do as they see fit!!! This is really no different than outlawing large fountain drinks…WHY? WHY? WHY!!!!!!!!

[GotBowAz]

Coues and Sheep. I agree with your assessment in unit 22 and mineral blocks or salt not working like it used to. At least that is very true for the Sunflower area. I know the ranch Forman personally down there and he puts out 50 pound mineral blocks like their going out of style. Every saddle in the area less than ¼ mile has a 50lb block put in it every year. Including Mount Ord. All done with Mules loaded up. So to your point Salt mineral blocks just won’t work anymore, at least not in that area. If they ban baiting minerals I'm not sure it will make a difference for other reasons too. Some folks have salted a spot for years, its evident by the craters in the ground. Those minerals are not going to go away, they are imbedded into the soil. The law may required no baiting but hypothetically if the law is passed am I in violation of sitting over a spot that I no longer haul salt into? I can’t see this getting passed. Are they going to stop the ranchers from dropping off 50 pound mineral licks and if not are we technically illegal to sit over them? To pass a no baiting law all these things would have to be covered in that law as well wouldn’t they?

 

IMO, rifle hunter can hunt wide open areas and to their advantage sit and glass the heck out of it for a good buck, do a spot and stalk and become extremely successful. Some very talented bow hunters can do this as well and for me it’s fun. But I also hunt the very thick nasty stuff you cant see 50 yards in front of you. There isn’t any rifle hunter going in there unless it’s to pass through to get to a glassing area. But those places also hold great bucks. Tree stand and ground blinds and baiting sights for the bow hunters. I cant see baiting a spot out in the middle of open rifle territory. That just doesn’t make sense to me. I'm not saying it doest happen but I would think it would be rare.

 

Lastly, if Fish and Game are worried about bow hunters increase in success then put a cap on it like they do bear. Keep selling the over the counter tags and make mandatory call ins on recordings every Wednesday. When the quota for that area has been met the hunter can call on a different unit and if the quota hasn’t been met there then he can go hunt it. Opportunity still is there, same tags are being sold, harvest objective did not go over for the area etc. etc.. I wish they would have done that for Javelina instead of going to a draw. I always thought that was stupid.

 

GBA

 

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

GBA, I have liked the "harvest objective" idea for a long time... It suits all and is a better management tool than any other option being discussed. And although I know they (AZGFD) and the other major supporters of this rule are targeting "Eatable Baits" and are now selling it as a "Herd Health" issue (CWD), but my point is that there are FAR worse concerns at water and salt sites then at locations were someone is tossing a little corn on the ground. I have not seen anywhere that they have any data to support their claims or agenda. I see it as a scare tactic and I don’t believe we have far less to fear from CWD by way of local bait sites than we do from careless importation which has ZERO monitoring, BTW…. There are unboiled heads & unprocessed (bone-in) meat being brought into this state all fall long and absolutly no monitoring. So lets inforce the littering law that is inplace on the excessive Master-baiters, and focus on CWD in the other manners in which it really should be. Just my $.02....

[1uglydude]

I see it as a scare tactic and I don’t believe we have far less to fear from CWD by way of local bait sites than we do from careless importation which has ZERO monitoring, BTW…. There are unboiled heads & unprocessed (bone-in) meat being brought into this state all fall long and absolutly no monitoring.

 

That is also on the agenda. As part of the same revisions to the rules, you'll now have to have all cervid meat boned out or "packaged" before bringing it into the state. Also, any skull coming in has to be completely free of "soft tissue."

 

As for your earlier points, I totally agree that the areas people are baiting are areas that are not, and probably would not, otherwise be hunted. I hear people complain that X number of deer were shot off a certain bait site each year, yet no one seems to care when 10-15 bucks are killed out of a single canyon during the rifle hunt.

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

I see it as a scare tactic and I don’t believe we have far less to fear from CWD by way of local bait sites than we do from careless importation which has ZERO monitoring, BTW…. There are unboiled heads & unprocessed (bone-in) meat being brought into this state all fall long and absolutly no monitoring.

 

That is also on the agenda. As part of the same revisions to the rules, you'll now have to have all cervid meat boned out or "packaged" before bringing it into the state. Also, any skull coming in has to be completely free of "soft tissue."

 

As for your earlier points, I totally agree that the areas people are baiting are areas that are not, and probably would not, otherwise be hunted. I hear people complain that X number of deer were shot off a certain bait site each year, yet no one seems to care when 10-15 bucks are killed out of a single canyon during the rifle hunt.

 

Yeah... and exactly how are they going to enforce that??? Are we going to invoke border crossing checks from one state to the next? How about border units? We have a huge deer migration into our state from Utah each year... we can transport those animals bone in all over the state. There are sooo many "What If's" and so many holes in this entire deal.... IT STINKS!!! All of it stinks!!

 

Plain and Simple... Big Government finding more ways to spend our money on enforcement of uninforcable rules/laws, instead of simply managing & educating. I am Tired of them all!! And soon you will only be able to walk from a paved road with a sharp stick in hand for your "Hunting or Outddoor Opportunity" if you combined all the Big Government Agencies and Greenie agendas that are stacked against us!! Lat time I checked, I paid my fair share of taxes to every dam agency with thier hand out, and paid all the permits, lic. fees, use & parking permits required by Big Government and they still wanna reduce my access, and how I use MY (our)LANDS AND MY (our) WILDLIFE!!! I am gut full of it... QUIT MAKING MORE RULES AND LAWS.... PERIOD!!! That needs to be the American public's stance on EVERYTHING!!! Enforce what we have, punish accordingly, and let's keep it simple!!!!!

[AverageJoe]

+1111 on everything mentiones in the above post

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

Funny I normally get fried alive on this forum anytime I am fired up about the things that matter to me and the people I care to hunt with.... and on this topic I am the only one with an oppinion?? Not even big mouth AZ Lance has a sharp word for me??? I am feeling way too in the right on this topic with out all the pot shots...

 

Maybe for once we all really do think that BIG Government is just slowly strangling us all and taking everything from how we get to the woods, where we camp, and how we do it once we get there??? Bust out the pitch forks! A sold one voice from all hunters saying this is Enough is really the only chance we have, if any. HaHaHa

[AZLance]

Queers'n'Sheep, although I hate your guts, and think you are a idiot! I do have to agree with you on this issue...

[PRDATR]

My take;

 

Loss of habitat, more people movin in and being born and more emphasis on hunting added to ORV's enabling people to get faster/further into areas, game cams, higher powered optics, faster bows, tree stands, ground blinds, bait, all are compounded to the decline of game.

But we all want our cake and it's not really you and me at fault.

Honestly I don't really care about the hunting aspect and am perfectly satisfied in putting out a dozen cameras to outsmart the biggest buck I can find so the hunt can be over 20 minutes after the sun comes up and I can post some pics for well deserved accolades.

As a bow hunter I don't like having fingers pointed my way about my success rate. If G&F doesn't like it then don't make tags available for the rut or pre-season when deer haven't been hunted for 8 months.