Commission meeting 4-14

[donniedent]

Well, the question we need to ask ourselves is why are people so apethtic? Honestly I don't know why. Maybe its a carry over from peoples feeling about our own government in that they don't feel they can make any difference. And... is their voice even heard?

 

I think if sportsmen knew that they actually did have a say in what happened, they might engage a bit more. I don't know....

 

Donnie

[Non-Typical Solutions]

Well, the question we need to ask ourselves is why are people so apethtic? Honestly I don't know why. Maybe its a carry over from peoples feeling about our own government in that they don't feel they can make any difference. And... is their voice even heard?

 

I think if sportsmen knew that they actually did have a say in what happened, they might engage a bit more. I don't know....

 

Donnie

For me, it is a matter of lack of knowledge. No idea what all of these different comittees represent, who the members are, what they represent, where the money goes.

 

I put in for hunts, buy my hunting license, feel lucky if I get drawn. Go hunt. Always under the assumption that my money for tags, etc. is what took care of what I know as Game and Fish.

 

When I started reading stories of hunting on this website, I started learning a whole lot about hunting and what is going on outside of my little, enclosed world.

 

I learned that not everybody has the same idea what "ethics" are and it is a pretty heated discussion.

 

I have learned that there are many factors that play into what Game and Fish has to deal with.

 

Salt licks, blinds, two tracker roads vs. "maintained" roads.

 

I have learned that there are many important issues out there that I honestly had no clue of and still wouldn't if it were not for all the info I have gleaned from this site.

 

I realize that there is much at hand and much that is very important for the future of our hunting and fishing youth. Many people spend many hours on behalf of something that I have taken for granted.

 

Even if I have not agreed with many things that have been said on this site I have still learned.

 

Ignorance is what I blame my position on, but now that I have become more informed, I need to decide what is best for me to do to help.

 

That decision becomes difficult though, when so many people claim one thing is what we need to do, and then a whole nother side of the spectrum says we need to do just the opposite.

 

I am a rookie at this stuff, but I think I have a good grounding on what I expect from professional people who would represent my ideals and concerns.

 

I feel I have met many people on this site that I would trust to make sound decisions on behalf of the future of our wildlife.

 

I am willing and ready to help be a part of the solving of the problems that face us.

[donniedent]

Thats a great attitude man. I can claim partial ignorance myself. Until I started hitting the boards of course.

 

I think what you can do is look at where you hunt a little closer and decide what is the best thing you can do to help the animals. Talk to the WM's where you hunt, see what you can help them out with. If there are too many song dogs, kill song dogs. If there are broken or clogged drinkers, clean em out. If you find a brushed in tank with lots of hiding places for kitty's, go cut some limbs. It doesn't always need to be a monumental ordeal that costs thousands of dollars.

 

I know one issue that I have wanted to focus on is all the mule deer between the Grand Canyon and Nogales. Small area, you know? Because so much of our HPC money comes from the Strip and the Kiabab, it stands to reason that those places would garner alot of focus but... we still have the rest of the state to pay attention to. There are alot of places in this fine state where the muleys are just having a rough time, they deserve as much focus as any other places in the state. I remember hearing that any Elk unit in the state has the potential to grow trophy elk.. Well, I think the same goes for muleys. I've seen typical muleys in the desert that would easily go 200" and been 60 yds from them. Who's to say that with conservative management and rain we couldn't rival Colorado with our muleys... I think we can. But, you have to make yourself heard. You have to get creative. I'm preaching to the choir here. One thing I really want to do this fall is get out during some of the desert hunts and visit camps. Talk to guys about what they are seeing and what they would want to see change and get their numbers. Get them involved in the process, let them know their voice matters.

 

If we don't make some serious changes very soon, you better just take your kids hunting now because they might not be able to do it when they are our age.

 

Donnie

[tjhunt2]

Well, the question we need to ask ourselves is why are people so apethtic? Honestly I don't know why. Maybe its a carry over from peoples feeling about our own government in that they don't feel they can make any difference. And... is their voice even heard?

 

I think if sportsmen knew that they actually did have a say in what happened, they might engage a bit more. I don't know....

 

Donnie

For me, it is a matter of lack of knowledge. No idea what all of these different comittees represent, who the members are, what they represent, where the money goes.

 

I put in for hunts, buy my hunting license, feel lucky if I get drawn. Go hunt. Always under the assumption that my money for tags, etc. is what took care of what I know as Game and Fish.

 

When I started reading stories of hunting on this website, I started learning a whole lot about hunting and what is going on outside of my little, enclosed world.

 

I learned that not everybody has the same idea what "ethics" are and it is a pretty heated discussion.

 

I have learned that there are many factors that play into what Game and Fish has to deal with.

 

Salt licks, blinds, two tracker roads vs. "maintained" roads.

 

I have learned that there are many important issues out there that I honestly had no clue of and still wouldn't if it were not for all the info I have gleaned from this site.

 

I realize that there is much at hand and much that is very important for the future of our hunting and fishing youth. Many people spend many hours on behalf of something that I have taken for granted.

 

Even if I have not agreed with many things that have been said on this site I have still learned.

 

Ignorance is what I blame my position on, but now that I have become more informed, I need to decide what is best for me to do to help.

 

That decision becomes difficult though, when so many people claim one thing is what we need to do, and then a whole nother side of the spectrum says we need to do just the opposite.

 

I am a rookie at this stuff, but I think I have a good grounding on what I expect from professional people who would represent my ideals and concerns.

 

I feel I have met many people on this site that I would trust to make sound decisions on behalf of the future of our wildlife.

 

I am willing and ready to help be a part of the solving of the problems that face us.

 

Well said my friend!

 

TJ

[bonuspointjohn]

Thats a great attitude man. I can claim partial ignorance myself. Until I started hitting the boards of course.

 

I think what you can do is look at where you hunt a little closer and decide what is the best thing you can do to help the animals. Talk to the WM's where you hunt, see what you can help them out with. If there are too many song dogs, kill song dogs. If there are broken or clogged drinkers, clean em out. If you find a brushed in tank with lots of hiding places for kitty's, go cut some limbs. It doesn't always need to be a monumental ordeal that costs thousands of dollars.

 

I know one issue that I have wanted to focus on is all the mule deer between the Grand Canyon and Nogales. Small area, you know? Because so much of our HPC money comes from the Strip and the Kiabab, it stands to reason that those places would garner alot of focus but... we still have the rest of the state to pay attention to. There are alot of places in this fine state where the muleys are just having a rough time, they deserve as much focus as any other places in the state. I remember hearing that any Elk unit in the state has the potential to grow trophy elk.. Well, I think the same goes for muleys. I've seen typical muleys in the desert that would easily go 200" and been 60 yds from them. Who's to say that with conservative management and rain we couldn't rival Colorado with our muleys... I think we can. But, you have to make yourself heard. You have to get creative. I'm preaching to the choir here. One thing I really want to do this fall is get out during some of the desert hunts and visit camps. Talk to guys about what they are seeing and what they would want to see change and get their numbers. Get them involved in the process, let them know their voice matters.

 

If we don't make some serious changes very soon, you better just take your kids hunting now because they might not be able to do it when they are our age.

 

Donnie

Do yourself and many others on this site a favor and review from the AZGFD reports on just where the funds for deer have been spent. There is a common misrepresentation on many forums that "most of the money goes north of the ditch". That is just not true. Ruth Gregory in the big game branch has all the funding numbers for ALL of the state. Get a copy and review just where the money has been spent. You will be surprised. Then go back 4 years and you will find that the land north of the ditch has received much less than that "small area" you referenced. You seem to have enough of an intellect to figure out that much of what is said on these sits is just not true.... but very popular. Then review the "grading reports" that the AZGFD puts together for ALL the HPC proposals. Who is at fault when a particular region places proposals that are 1) incomplete 2)Do not have NEPA or Arc work done 3) have no local commitment for matching funds 4)do not supply maps, photos or important data 5) have no ranching support or access agreements. I wonder if you will take the time to chase down this story ......

[donniedent]

Thats a great attitude man. I can claim partial ignorance myself. Until I started hitting the boards of course.

 

I think what you can do is look at where you hunt a little closer and decide what is the best thing you can do to help the animals. Talk to the WM's where you hunt, see what you can help them out with. If there are too many song dogs, kill song dogs. If there are broken or clogged drinkers, clean em out. If you find a brushed in tank with lots of hiding places for kitty's, go cut some limbs. It doesn't always need to be a monumental ordeal that costs thousands of dollars.

 

I know one issue that I have wanted to focus on is all the mule deer between the Grand Canyon and Nogales. Small area, you know? Because so much of our HPC money comes from the Strip and the Kiabab, it stands to reason that those places would garner alot of focus but... we still have the rest of the state to pay attention to. There are alot of places in this fine state where the muleys are just having a rough time, they deserve as much focus as any other places in the state. I remember hearing that any Elk unit in the state has the potential to grow trophy elk.. Well, I think the same goes for muleys. I've seen typical muleys in the desert that would easily go 200" and been 60 yds from them. Who's to say that with conservative management and rain we couldn't rival Colorado with our muleys... I think we can. But, you have to make yourself heard. You have to get creative. I'm preaching to the choir here. One thing I really want to do this fall is get out during some of the desert hunts and visit camps. Talk to guys about what they are seeing and what they would want to see change and get their numbers. Get them involved in the process, let them know their voice matters.

 

If we don't make some serious changes very soon, you better just take your kids hunting now because they might not be able to do it when they are our age.

 

Donnie

Do yourself and many others on this site a favor and review from the AZGFD reports on just where the funds for deer have been spent. There is a common misrepresentation on many forums that "most of the money goes north of the ditch". That is just not true. Ruth Gregory in the big game branch has all the funding numbers for ALL of the state. Get a copy and review just where the money has been spent. You will be surprised. Then go back 4 years and you will find that the land north of the ditch has received much less than that "small area" you referenced. You seem to have enough of an intellect to figure out that much of what is said on these sits is just not true.... but very popular. Then review the "grading reports" that the AZGFD puts together for ALL the HPC proposals. Who is at fault when a particular region places proposals that are 1) incomplete 2)Do not have NEPA or Arc work done 3) have no local commitment for matching funds 4)do not supply maps, photos or important data 5) have no ranching support or access agreements. I wonder if you will take the time to chase down this story ......

 

 

John, I don't recall saying anything about money spent. I said focus. You were at the meeting, how much time did Brian spend on the Kiabab and the strip? Most of the time Brian was going over that data. How many collared mule deer are there on the Kiabab right now... 20? How many collard mule deer are in the rest of the state? And why the heck are we collaring deer on the Kiabab? We know they are there. Its a strong deer herd, so strong that the dept feels its ok to have a doe hunt. How about the deer in region 4? I don't see anyone trying to spend $90,000 to collar 20 deer there.

 

"I wonder if you will take the time to chase down this story ......"

 

Partner, I respect your opinion and position but I do not appriciate your combative approach. I'm not here to fight with you and if you read thru all my posts on this thread you'll see that I'm trying to bridge a gap that was created by a bad bill and those that supported it. I'm trying to get the average hunter involved in the process. Does that threaten you in some way? And who was the last guy you tried to call out? George from Yuma Valley right? I might be uneducated as of now but I know for a fact that George knows a thing or two. And how has your current approach worked so far? Should we discuss your conversation with the commission on Saturday?

 

Oh and yes, I am involving and educating myself in the process and I will be looking at all kinds of numbers very soon.

 

Donnie

[Non-Typical Solutions]

HPC

NEPA

ARC

 

Here we go again.....you obviously already have the story and are just sitting on edge waiting to share or blast somebody my guess is somebody from the AZGFD(I know what that one means).

 

I would think at this point you might get in touch with donniedent and find out what you two can do together to help with the:

 

1) incomplete 2)Do not have NEPA or Arc work done 3) have no local commitment for matching funds 4)do not supply maps, photos or important data 5) have no ranching support or access agreements

 

And you wonder why still there is a lack of trust from the average hunter, whose support, money and donated tags you want.

This type of junk is what breeds apathy......and it is killing the desire to get involved.

[bonuspointjohn]

Thats a great attitude man. I can claim partial ignorance myself. Until I started hitting the boards of course.

 

I think what you can do is look at where you hunt a little closer and decide what is the best thing you can do to help the animals. Talk to the WM's where you hunt, see what you can help them out with. If there are too many song dogs, kill song dogs. If there are broken or clogged drinkers, clean em out. If you find a brushed in tank with lots of hiding places for kitty's, go cut some limbs. It doesn't always need to be a monumental ordeal that costs thousands of dollars.

 

I know one issue that I have wanted to focus on is all the mule deer between the Grand Canyon and Nogales. Small area, you know? Because so much of our HPC money comes from the Strip and the Kiabab, it stands to reason that those places would garner alot of focus but... we still have the rest of the state to pay attention to. There are alot of places in this fine state where the muleys are just having a rough time, they deserve as much focus as any other places in the state. I remember hearing that any Elk unit in the state has the potential to grow trophy elk.. Well, I think the same goes for muleys. I've seen typical muleys in the desert that would easily go 200" and been 60 yds from them. Who's to say that with conservative management and rain we couldn't rival Colorado with our muleys... I think we can. But, you have to make yourself heard. You have to get creative. I'm preaching to the choir here. One thing I really want to do this fall is get out during some of the desert hunts and visit camps. Talk to guys about what they are seeing and what they would want to see change and get their numbers. Get them involved in the process, let them know their voice matters.

 

If we don't make some serious changes very soon, you better just take your kids hunting now because they might not be able to do it when they are our age.

 

Donnie

Do yourself and many others on this site a favor and review from the AZGFD reports on just where the funds for deer have been spent. There is a common misrepresentation on many forums that "most of the money goes north of the ditch". That is just not true. Ruth Gregory in the big game branch has all the funding numbers for ALL of the state. Get a copy and review just where the money has been spent. You will be surprised. Then go back 4 years and you will find that the land north of the ditch has received much less than that "small area" you referenced. You seem to have enough of an intellect to figure out that much of what is said on these sits is just not true.... but very popular. Then review the "grading reports" that the AZGFD puts together for ALL the HPC proposals. Who is at fault when a particular region places proposals that are 1) incomplete 2)Do not have NEPA or Arc work done 3) have no local commitment for matching funds 4)do not supply maps, photos or important data 5) have no ranching support or access agreements. I wonder if you will take the time to chase down this story ......

 

 

John, I don't recall saying anything about money spent. I said focus. You were at the meeting, how much time did Brian spend on the Kiabab and the strip? Most of the time Brian was going over that data. How many collared mule deer are there on the Kiabab right now... 20? How many collard mule deer are in the rest of the state? And why the heck are we collaring deer on the Kiabab? We know they are there. Its a strong deer herd, so strong that the dept feels its ok to have a doe hunt. How about the deer in region 4? I don't see anyone trying to spend $90,000 to collar 20 deer there.

 

"I wonder if you will take the time to chase down this story ......"

 

Partner, I respect your opinion and position but I do not appriciate your combative approach. I'm not here to fight with you and if you read thru all my posts on this thread you'll see that I'm trying to bridge a gap that was created by a bad bill and those that supported it. I'm trying to get the average hunter involved in the process. Does that threaten you in some way? And who was the last guy you tried to call out? George from Yuma Valley right? I might be uneducated as of now but I know for a fact that George knows a thing or two. And how has your current approach worked so far? Should we discuss your conversation with the commission on Saturday?

 

Oh and yes, I am involving and educating myself in the process and I will be looking at all kinds of numbers very soon.

 

Donnie

Nothing combative about my query. There have been many statements that the ADA only cares about deer north of the Colorado. If you were to take the time and do the readings, you would find that the ADA funded the 3Bar study and that cost us over $50,000.00 to do. It involved capturing 20 does that were pregnant, inserting an IUD that was expunged when the doe gave birth. Then we tracked the device to the exact location and collared the fawns. From that point the fawns were then tracked until the collar indicated that they had been killed. The information proved that in an area with NO predators, the mule deer survival rate was close to 90%. Immediately adjacent to that area the fawn survival rate was less than 25%. I have tried calling you, but you do not seem to answer. I wonder why you approached only the ADBSS at the meeting and not the ADA? It seems too easy to shoot at the ADA when having a conversation would solve some of the problems. There is a lot to learn if you are just stepping into the arena of conservation. I would pose the same question to you ... what are you afraid of in talking to me or the ADA?..

[donniedent]

I applaud the efforts of the ADA in reference to the 3bar. And yes, 3bar proved that of you remove all the predators that fawn survival was much greater, even under drought conditions. But, when and where are we going to remove all the predators? It will never happen. I agree with you about the effects of predators. One of my personal goals is to see a study done in the desert to document the effects of coyote predation.

 

I have nothing to say about ADA leadership or agenda, I'm not a memember, what right do I have to speak publically on the inner workings? I fully admit to the fact that I have made assumtions, as many here have, about current leadership of all the orgs. I'm trying to educate myself and I'm not affraid at all to admit when I'm wrong.

 

As far as meeting you Sunday.. I didn't even know who you were until after you got up to speak and you left before I got a chance to introduce myself. And you didn't appear to be in the mood to chat after your discussion with the board. As far as your phone call, I know I got a call from a 480 number and there was no message left so I had no idea it was you trying to call me. Had I known it was you I would have called you back directly.

 

I have committed not to speak ill of any other org or leader of an org unless directly engaged. If you go back and read my very first post on this topic, I was indirectly defending your possition. I think you spoke well at the meeting and your obviously an intelligent guy. I didn't even fully agree with how the two commissioners handled you. I also noted in my first post that you did attempt to address the dec rifle hunts to no avail.

 

100 percent of my focus right now is on getting more hunters involved in conservation efforts in the areas they care about, areas i personally feel have been neglected. I am more than willing to meet you, talk to you and shake your hand. I take none of this personal.

 

Donnie Lee

602-677-4537

Donniepdr@gmail.com

[audsley]

I'll speak up for ADA on this one. They've been pretty good about agreeing to HPC funding allocations to southern Arizona.

[TLH]

Thats a great attitude man. I can claim partial ignorance myself. Until I started hitting the boards of course.

 

I think what you can do is look at where you hunt a little closer and decide what is the best thing you can do to help the animals. Talk to the WM's where you hunt, see what you can help them out with. If there are too many song dogs, kill song dogs. If there are broken or clogged drinkers, clean em out. If you find a brushed in tank with lots of hiding places for kitty's, go cut some limbs. It doesn't always need to be a monumental ordeal that costs thousands of dollars.

 

I know one issue that I have wanted to focus on is all the mule deer between the Grand Canyon and Nogales. Small area, you know? Because so much of our HPC money comes from the Strip and the Kiabab, it stands to reason that those places would garner alot of focus but... we still have the rest of the state to pay attention to. There are alot of places in this fine state where the muleys are just having a rough time, they deserve as much focus as any other places in the state. I remember hearing that any Elk unit in the state has the potential to grow trophy elk.. Well, I think the same goes for muleys. I've seen typical muleys in the desert that would easily go 200" and been 60 yds from them. Who's to say that with conservative management and rain we couldn't rival Colorado with our muleys... I think we can. But, you have to make yourself heard. You have to get creative. I'm preaching to the choir here. One thing I really want to do this fall is get out during some of the desert hunts and visit camps. Talk to guys about what they are seeing and what they would want to see change and get their numbers. Get them involved in the process, let them know their voice matters.

 

If we don't make some serious changes very soon, you better just take your kids hunting now because they might not be able to do it when they are our age.

 

Donnie

Do yourself and many others on this site a favor and review from the AZGFD reports on just where the funds for deer have been spent. There is a common misrepresentation on many forums that "most of the money goes north of the ditch". That is just not true. Ruth Gregory in the big game branch has all the funding numbers for ALL of the state. Get a copy and review just where the money has been spent. You will be surprised. Then go back 4 years and you will find that the land north of the ditch has received much less than that "small area" you referenced. You seem to have enough of an intellect to figure out that much of what is said on these sits is just not true.... but very popular. Then review the "grading reports" that the AZGFD puts together for ALL the HPC proposals. Who is at fault when a particular region places proposals that are 1) incomplete 2)Do not have NEPA or Arc work done 3) have no local commitment for matching funds 4)do not supply maps, photos or important data 5) have no ranching support or access agreements. I wonder if you will take the time to chase down this story ......

 

 

John, I don't recall saying anything about money spent. I said focus. You were at the meeting, how much time did Brian spend on the Kiabab and the strip? Most of the time Brian was going over that data. How many collared mule deer are there on the Kiabab right now... 20? How many collard mule deer are in the rest of the state? And why the heck are we collaring deer on the Kiabab? We know they are there. Its a strong deer herd, so strong that the dept feels its ok to have a doe hunt. How about the deer in region 4? I don't see anyone trying to spend $90,000 to collar 20 deer there.

 

"I wonder if you will take the time to chase down this story ......"

 

Partner, I respect your opinion and position but I do not appriciate your combative approach. I'm not here to fight with you and if you read thru all my posts on this thread you'll see that I'm trying to bridge a gap that was created by a bad bill and those that supported it. I'm trying to get the average hunter involved in the process. Does that threaten you in some way? And who was the last guy you tried to call out? George from Yuma Valley right? I might be uneducated as of now but I know for a fact that George knows a thing or two. And how has your current approach worked so far? Should we discuss your conversation with the commission on Saturday?

 

Oh and yes, I am involving and educating myself in the process and I will be looking at all kinds of numbers very soon.

 

Donnie

Nothing combative about my query. There have been many statements that the ADA only cares about deer north of the Colorado. If you were to take the time and do the readings, you would find that the ADA funded the 3Bar study and that cost us over $50,000.00 to do. It involved capturing 20 does that were pregnant, inserting an IUD that was expunged when the doe gave birth. Then we tracked the device to the exact location and collared the fawns. From that point the fawns were then tracked until the collar indicated that they had been killed. The information proved that in an area with NO predators, the mule deer survival rate was close to 90%. Immediately adjacent to that area the fawn survival rate was less than 25%. I have tried calling you, but you do not seem to answer. I wonder why you approached only the ADBSS at the meeting and not the ADA? It seems too easy to shoot at the ADA when having a conversation would solve some of the problems. There is a lot to learn if you are just stepping into the arena of conservation. I would pose the same question to you ... what are you afraid of in talking to me or the ADA?..

 

 

John, just for curiosity can you show me how many times people had said that the ADA is only concerned with the herd north of the Colorado River?? I have not read those posts and would like to see them if you have a link to them.

 

Thanks!

[donniedent]

I'll speak up for ADA on this one. They've been pretty good about agreeing to HPC funding allocations to southern Arizona.

 

Funny, I never said anything about the ADA or its leadership. I simply said that I'd didn't feel the deer herds are getting the focus they deserve.

 

As of the 2011 deer surveys in region 4, the deer numbers are down 70 percent is some areas. That's beyond alarming. I guess my question is, why do we have collared deer on the Kiabab when Game and Fish feels there are sufficient numbers there to recommend a raise in doe tags? And who is pushing for this study? So deer numbers are up on the Kiabab... Are they spending 10's of thousands of dollars to find out why? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I really would like to know. No hit on the dept, if they feel a study is in order, I support them 100 percent.

 

Donnie

[donniedent]

John, it was good to talk to you.

 

P.S.

 

Anyone that is interested in working on a water project on the 28th of this month, shoot me a pm and I'll give you the skinny!!

 

Donnie

[SpeedGoat]

If a newcomer feels that they want to jump into the pool we should all embrace them and make them feel welcome. Let them know that they CAN make a difference.

The first waterhole project I went on Johnny Fugate and a certain Region Four biologist made me feel like they couldn't do another project without me. Needless to say I feel guilty for every single project I miss, even though they are more than capable of making it happen. Donnie, thank you for you curiousity it will get you far. I encourage you to keep digging, as you wish. If you get tired or need a nudge I promise to be behind you to help.

 

This should be the response that EVERYONE gives a newcomer to the conservation movement.

Oh, and Donnie, the Department IS on our side and WANTS to help us.

 

Regards,

DP

[donniedent]

DP,

 

Thank you for the encouragement. John held true to his word and did call me. We had a great talk about alot of issues. The conversation was never strained or uncomfortable. He was very gracious and offered his assistance on any HPC proposals we may have region 4 in the future. Its a whole lot different when you can actually talk to somebody either in person or on the phone.

 

Thanks again man and I will keep everyone informed on SWSA's progress as we move forward. If we all remember its all about conservation in the end, we can get along just fine.

 

Donnie