Commission meeting 4-14

[ThomC]

Did anyone watch the commission meeting today. The president of the ada got up wearing a Game & Fish hat. How lame is that? The commissioners gave him some stuff. Yea. His presentation was pure you know what.

 

I dont know why the ada has this john as their pres.

 

Now the Pres. of the ABA was a very respectable presenter. If you are looking for an org to join check out the ABA. Just say no to the ada. IMO of course

 

O and the old ASU prof. who stumbled thru his presentation that he is against hunting lions because he can hear the dogs barking from his house. Besides he has the lions in his area trained to respect his property.

[elkaholic]

we need to post these meetings - i'm sure there was some notification - i must have missed it!

 

Was there any adjenda addressed we need to be aware of ? i'll try to check video minutes when available!

 

 

Anybody give us a more detailed rundown - please .

 

Has the aba withdrawn from the azsfw yet ?

 

 

i've been havin major comp problems and got a new modem today - seems to have solved the issue!

[audsley]

I missed BPJ's appearance, but the ASU professor's spiel was a real piece of work. About half the statements he made were wrong,irrelevant or based on false assumptions. I had expected the commissioners and biologists on hand to hammer him with a point-by-point rebuttal, but they just thanked him and let him walk out as ignorant and confused as when he came in. I feel that could be dangerous because judges and the news media, which is where he's apt to go next, probably won't have the background to realize he's full of it.

 

What's most amazing about the good professor is that he raises domestic sheep in an area inhabited by bighorn sheep and doesn't seem to find anything wrong with that. Apparently his wildlife expertise does not include the common knowledge that domestic sheep can safely carry diseases and parasites that are fatal to bighorn sheep, and that many bighorn sheep have died throughout the West from being infected by domestic sheep.

[donniedent]

I was at todays meeting.

 

The main areas of focus were on changes in the deer recomendations and lion recomendations.

 

As far as the deer recomendations are concerned much of the focus was of course on the Kiabab. The department recommended raising junior doe tags and if I remember correctly they were actually lowered. Sorry, can't remember the exact number. Another area of focus was on 3a/3c. They will now be managed as an alternative management area. The dept recommended 200 general tags, 125 archery tags and 25 junior tags. John from the ADA got up and spoke concerning the junior tags I believe in both the Kiabab and 3a/3c and attempted to address the late rifle hunts that were recommended. There was dialog between John and 2 of the commissioners. It was fairly evident that there is some residule feelings about the house bill. I cannot remember his name but the president of the ABA got up and spoke concerning the archery tag numbers in 3a/3c. He made a very effective argument concerning the 125 archery tags the dept recommended. He had the commission on his side on that topic and they riased the number of archery tags above the depts recommendation. I think they raised it to 200 tags for archery.

 

The lion issue was another topic that got extra focus. There was the ASU professor that got up and spoke and a vetrenarian from Rio Verde. The first comments were from Curt Steinke. He made an excellent arguement in favor of keeping the multiple bag limit in Araviapa Canyon. Chad Jones also made some great comments. One that caught my ear was his comment that the ADBSS was glad to see the MBL lifted in 6a south because lion objectives had been reached and I recall Norm Freeman thanking him and congratulating him on his comments about that. I actually got to meet a few of the guys from ADBSS. Very down to earth guys and I was well recieved. We spoke a little about the little group I'm involved in and I recieved some excellent advice. Good group of guys. As far as the opposition goes... of course they are misled and tend to speak from an emotional standpoint. The vet from Rio Verde made the comment that even though he does not hunt, he still buys a hunting license so that he can support wildlife. Agree with him or not but that shows me he does care about wildlife and though his opinion differs from ours on predator management, he at least stepped up and let his voice be heard.

 

My overall opinion is that it was an interesting meeting. Brian Wakeling did well ansewering all the questions the commission had. They are deffinately a more conservative commission than we've had in the recent past.

 

I will say this though. I was fairly concerned about the lack of attendance by the general public. Say what you will about BPJ but at least he was there. Say what you will about the ASU guy and the Vet... but again... at least they were there. I find it more than slightly disturbing that on the heels of the HB2072 and all the attention it recieved that more people have yet to learn that if you don't attend meetings and make your voice heard... others WILL speak for you. And they may say things you don't like! How can you sit and complain about HB2072 or the deer herds or predators or any other hot topic if you are not involved in the comment process? The dept basically begs us to be involved. The orgs beg us for support and fianancial help. It takes HB2072 to get people up out of their coffins and talking but as soon as things die down a bit, they lay right back down. I'm honsetly very discouraged at this point. I expected a much bigger turn out. On a personal level, I am going to step back and re-think things a bit. There are a few of us that have gotten together to try and create an new org in hopes that the average joe will be better represtented and some focus can be shown to the desert deer herds. This was a hot topic off season and it isn't over yet with this new problem coming up on the Kiabab. If these issues don't get the average joes off their butt and involved in the comment process what good would an org that is supposed to represent them do?

 

Many of us sit and voice negative opinions about various orgs. I am guilty of that myself. In retrospect, that was a mistake. I think I will keep my opinons to myself concerning the inner workings and leadership of orgs I am not a member of. Who am I to say who should be the president of an org I'm not a member of? If you don't like what an org does, join the org and move to make the changes you feel should be made. Every species specific org in this state was created to do good things for their respective species of focus. I don't think anyone can deny that the ADA, ADBSS, AES, or any other group was formed with the most honorable intentions. If groups make mistakes in agenda or leadership, it is the members obligation to correct them. The key word though is members! These are not public groups. Their leadership is not voted in by the general public. It takes membership and support of a particular group to have a say so in that group. It is easy for us to stand on the outside and make judgements but I don't believe many of us know the whole story. I challenge anyone that sees an org going the wrong direction to join that org and get involved in changing the orgs direction. Or... get some buddies together and start your own!!!

 

Conservationists attempt conserve wildlife

Conserve: to keep or protect from harm, decay, loss, etc.

 

The anti's try to liberate wildlife

Liberate: To set free, as from oppression, confinement, or foreign control.

 

Hunters that don't do anything to conserve wildlife and only hunt are consumers

Consume: To expend; use up

 

Which one are you?

 

 

 

Donnie Lee

602-677-4537

[muskrat]

Who am I to say who should be the president of an org I'm not a member of? If you don't like what an org does, join the org and move to make the changes you feel should be made. Every species specific org in this state was created to do good things for their respective species of focus. I don't think anyone can deny that the ADA, ADBSS, AES, or any other group was formed with the most honorable intentions. If groups make mistakes in agenda or leadership, it is the members obligation to correct them. The key word though is members! These are not public groups. Their leadership is not voted in by the general public. It takes membership and support of a particular group to have a say so in that group. It is easy for us to stand on the outside and make judgements but I don't believe many of us know the whole story.

 

Donnie - I think with every post I admire you a bit more. Great report, great insight. Thanks.

[CouesWhitetail]

I was at todays meeting.

 

The main areas of focus were on changes in the deer recomendations and lion recomendations.

 

As far as the deer recomendations are concerned much of the focus was of course on the Kiabab. The department recommended raising junior doe tags and if I remember correctly they were actually lowered. Sorry, can't remember the exact number. Another area of focus was on 3a/3c. They will now be managed as an alternative management area. The dept recommended 200 general tags, 125 archery tags and 25 junior tags. John from the ADA got up and spoke concerning the junior tags I believe in both the Kiabab and 3a/3c and attempted to address the late rifle hunts that were recommended. There was dialog between John and 2 of the commissioners. It was fairly evident that there is some residule feelings about the house bill. I cannot remember his name but the president of the ABA got up and spoke concerning the archery tag numbers in 3a/3c. He made a very effective argument concerning the 125 archery tags the dept recommended. He had the commission on his side on that topic and they riased the number of archery tags above the depts recommendation. I think they raised it to 200 tags for archery.

 

The lion issue was another topic that got extra focus. There was the ASU professor that got up and spoke and a vetrenarian from Rio Verde. The first comments were from Curt Steinke. He made an excellent arguement in favor of keeping the multiple bag limit in Araviapa Canyon. Chad Jones also made some great comments. One that caught my ear was his comment that the ADBSS was glad to see the MBL lifted in 6a south because lion objectives had been reached and I recall Norm Freeman thanking him and congratulating him on his comments about that. I actually got to meet a few of the guys from ADBSS. Very down to earth guys and I was well recieved. We spoke a little about the little group I'm involved in and I recieved some excellent advice. Good group of guys. As far as the opposition goes... of course they are misled and tend to speak from an emotional standpoint. The vet from Rio Verde made the comment that even though he does not hunt, he still buys a hunting license so that he can support wildlife. Agree with him or not but that shows me he does care about wildlife and though his opinion differs from ours on predator management, he at least stepped up and let his voice be heard.

 

My overall opinion is that it was an interesting meeting. Brian Wakeling did well ansewering all the questions the commission had. They are deffinately a more conservative commission than we've had in the recent past.

 

I will say this though. I was fairly concerned about the lack of attendance by the general public. Say what you will about BPJ but at least he was there. Say what you will about the ASU guy and the Vet... but again... at least they were there. I find it more than slightly disturbing that on the heels of the HB2072 and all the attention it recieved that more people have yet to learn that if you don't attend meetings and make your voice heard... others WILL speak for you. And they may say things you don't like! How can you sit and complain about HB2072 or the deer herds or predators or any other hot topic if you are not involved in the comment process? The dept basically begs us to be involved. The orgs beg us for support and fianancial help. It takes HB2072 to get people up out of their coffins and talking but as soon as things die down a bit, they lay right back down. I'm honsetly very discouraged at this point. I expected a much bigger turn out. On a personal level, I am going to step back and re-think things a bit. There are a few of us that have gotten together to try and create an new org in hopes that the average joe will be better represtented and some focus can be shown to the desert deer herds. This was a hot topic off season and it isn't over yet with this new problem coming up on the Kiabab. If these issues don't get the average joes off their butt and involved in the comment process what good would an org that is supposed to represent them do?

 

Many of us sit and voice negative opinions about various orgs. I am guilty of that myself. In retrospect, that was a mistake. I think I will keep my opinons to myself concerning the inner workings and leadership of orgs I am not a member of. Who am I to say who should be the president of an org I'm not a member of? If you don't like what an org does, join the org and move to make the changes you feel should be made. Every species specific org in this state was created to do good things for their respective species of focus. I don't think anyone can deny that the ADA, ADBSS, AES, or any other group was formed with the most honorable intentions. If groups make mistakes in agenda or leadership, it is the members obligation to correct them. The key word though is members! These are not public groups. Their leadership is not voted in by the general public. It takes membership and support of a particular group to have a say so in that group. It is easy for us to stand on the outside and make judgements but I don't believe many of us know the whole story. I challenge anyone that sees an org going the wrong direction to join that org and get involved in changing the orgs direction. Or... get some buddies together and start your own!!!

 

Conservationists attempt conserve wildlife

Conserve: to keep or protect from harm, decay, loss, etc.

 

The anti's try to liberate wildlife

Liberate: To set free, as from oppression, confinement, or foreign control.

 

Hunters that don't do anything to conserve wildlife and only hunt are consumers

Consume: To expend; use up

 

Which one are you?

 

 

 

Donnie Lee

602-677-4537

 

 

+1

[tscott]

Donnie very good post. Once again I'm impressed..I'm looking forward to working with you on the 442 waterhole project. It looks like we're gonna have a few more hands helping this time around.

 

To answer your question; I'm a conservationist and I think it's my moral obligation to volunteer several hours a year back to wildlife from which I've taken from rather than sitting on the computer beating the war drums.

 

This is a two front battle. We need more sportsmen/women going to the meetings speaking on our behalf and and we need people volunteering a few hours a year because the Dept can only do so much. If more people were involved

it would motivate the Dept. to listening and working with us. Honestly I'm sure they get a bad taste in their mouth's when they see people beating the war drums and complaing on the boards but nobody shows up to a waterhole project or a meeting.

 

Anyhow I want to thank those of you who went to the meeting.

[donniedent]

I hate to do it this way Snapshot but I'm going to...

 

"I don't agree with a challenge to join a current org that is headed in the wrong direction, simply to try and change it. That can be a very difficult thing to do. This wrong direction does not apply only to Wildlife/Sportsman groups, but many other types of groups as well. The "Good old boys club" if you will."

 

I don't completely disagree with what you are saying but let me throw this at you. Just like any group of friends, you hang out together, you talk about things, you meet each others families and you associate with those you have common ground with. Well I think it a very simlar situation for org leadership. I'm not saying its such a great thing but you seek out like minded people and if you are never challenged to step out of your own mindset, you simply won't change it. So, how do you change a mindset???? You offer an alternative opinion. You have a group of friends I'm sure and from the outside, you could be considered good ol boys.

 

"The major obstacles I have seen in various Orgs/groups/Commissions etc., is you get a group of control freak Board members, that want to do do everything their way, regradless of member/public opinion. Homeowner Associations are a perfect example of this. Trust me, I have much experience in that arena."

 

My challenge left another option... you could form your own group or.. join the Sportsmans Constituent group... I didn't see anyone from that March 22nd meeting yesterday either. And.... compairing a conservation org to a homeowners association isn't very realistic.

 

"We have all seen some of the past G&F Commissions public meetings. They have made up there mind about issues, before that meeting is even held. But they have to have open public meetings, under the pretense that they actually care about public/hunter input. The current commission may or may not be that way, but we have all seen it in that past."

 

I beg to differ. There was much discussion back and forth amongst the commissioners. There were changes made to the recommendations and made right there, on the fly, in that meeting. Besides... you weren't there! How can you make a judgement? The ABA president proved you completely wrong. He brought up an issue and got the changes I'm sure he had hoped for. If had not stepped up and tried to get more tags... the commission would have adopted the recommended 125 tags.

 

"I would gladly join a Sportsman Conservation group if I can find one in the Tucson area that I believe is headed in the right direction, and would be a good fit for me. Unfortunately, I am a poor man, and I cannot travel all over the state at will. It is easier said than done for a lot of folks."

 

I would be willing to wager that my bottom line differs little from yours... speaking and having a voice doesn't cost a dime!

 

Listen bud, I'm not trying to beat you up or one up you. I'm truly not... but the way you talk... you're already beaten.

 

Donnie Lee

602-677-4537

[donniedent]

I'm going to add this..

 

I consider myself a pretty good judge of character. I got to spend some time with the president, the vice president, a former president and others from the ADBSS. I'm truly a nobody in every sense of the word. Just a guy with an opinion. I felt very welcomed and in speaking with those indivduals... I know for a fact that they would welcome any and all input from us regular guys. Actually I felt I was amongst regular guys.

 

I am as guilty as anyone of pre-concieved notions and judgements and more often than not, I have been dead wrong. Can somethings change... definately, but how can they change if we don't involve ourselves?

[tscott]

I don't really think one has to officially join a Org to be involved. I haven't been a member of any AZ based conservation orgs for the last several years. I do however find myself on a project several times a year though. Some of the projects are AZGFD sponsored with little or no help from any of premiere AZ orgs. Last year I attended a ADBSS project and wasn't a member and I'm still not a member.I felt it was my moral obligation to participate and give back in an area where I hunt and take wildlife.

 

My brother and I have a working relationship with our local WM's to help with their work load. These guy's are spread pretty darn thin. Something as simple as cleaning dead Bee's from a water trough to keep the water from fouling can help enormously. Then we'll call the WM and let him/her know what we did and give him a status report on the condition of the waterhole. This saves time and money.

 

One thing I like to do is check critical sheep waterholes. Last year I reported a particular ADBSS catchment that was dangerously low. I contacted the local WM and he reacted immediately and ordered a helicopter to resolve the problem by bringing in water.

[ThomC]

FYI

As I said but will clear it up a little. I watched the meeting on my computer from Tucson AZ. And I reported MY OPINION as I also said.

 

So, a interested person can observe and contribute and not drive to PHX. Also, a person can partipate in many activities helping wildlife without joining a org.

 

My second paragraph is a fact, but not a requirement.

[CouesWhitetail]

Snapshot, there are a couple groups that come to mind that are Tucson based. Maybe other people can suggest more.

 

AZ SCI is based out of Tucson. They do some neat projects. Bobby Boido is president and a member here and a sponsor through his personal business. Scottyboy is a board member also. And I plan to have a CW.com table at their upcoming banquet.

http://www.azsci.com/

 

or perhaps the tucson chapter of the Rocky Mtn Elk Foundation. Several of our members here are involved with this group. They have been incredibly effective at raising money for wildlife.

http://www.rmef.org/State/Arizona/Chapter/Arizona+State/

 

 

But as has been said, you don't need to join a group to help wildlife in Arizona. Just go to any of the groups websites or AGFD website and find a habitat project to help on. You don't have to be a member to help. You can also participate in the AGFD commission meetings remotely by watching online and submitting comments online. You don't necessarily have to attend the meeting in PHX.

[AzHuntingAddict]

I didnt even know they had a meeting yesterday. I need to get back into shape and keep track of what going on.

[donniedent]

My post was directed at hunters as whole and is the sum of my own observations. I was speaking to myself as well. I'm absolutley no better than anyone else in that until very recently I did not take part in anything other than hunting. Maybe I am presume too much to try and point out the faults of my peers and in doing so, correcting my own apathy.

 

I'm really trying to see both sides of the coin here. We can all sit and point across the isle at each other or we can accept responsability for our own downfalls and come together. I'm sorry, I'm starting to see how the apathy of the masses has forced a select few to take action. Do I agree with the all the actions taken? No.. but, I can tell you, theres not a whole lot I can complain about if I didn't involve myself in the process.

 

Do you need to join an org to be a part of the process? No. But, who do we look to when the anti's come and try to take away our hunting privledges? You got it. With out fianancial contributions, the orgs in this state are ineffectual. I have said this what seems 100 times but if we had done our fair share in fianancially supporting the fight for OUR rights, AZSFW would not have had any reason or excuse (how ever you see it) to try and take tags and auction them off. I feel like a broken record.

 

In the end, I really don't see anything changing. The majority of hunters will stay uninvolved and apathetic. Its really unfortunate. You think HB2072 was bad?? Wait until something really big comes along and we don't have the means to fight it. Do you really believe the anti's don't know we are vulnerable? They know what the economy is here, otherwise they wouldn't be trying that BS on the Kiabab. Its almost funny, all that money, effort and focus that has been placed on a very small portion of Arizona (too dang much IMO) and now we're faced with losing it. Very ironic.

 

SWSA has big plans for a completely new kind of structure, one that will truly represent all sportsmen that choose to be involved. I'm very excited about it but, if sportsmen as a whole don't get involved it will all be for nothing. Sad really. For those that are stepping up and more so, those that have carried the torch despite our apathy... Thank you!

 

Donnie Lee

[coueshunter]

Donnie, the biggest concern I have, and it has always been around is apathy. I am going to be in the sportsman constituent group and on 1 or more boards, but I am wondering how many hunters/outdoorsman will stay engaged after 2072. I hope the websites can be a place to spur on involvement......keep issues in front of people.....I hold hope for that.......I know when I was on Ada board a few years back, getting people involved was the hardest issue............volunteering your time for projects, meetings or banquets/fundraisers is where it is at......allen