coconino forest changes starting in may

[mp_moody]

I dislike that if the road is not on the map you can't use it.

 

Is this the summary of the issue? The map only shows what roads are open for travel/camping?

 

If so, these new changes are going to be interesting. Where I camp there are a lot of weekend warrior types with their atvs, so I normally go further back until I don't see anyone for miles. I sure as heck won't be camping anywhere near any roads or people. Compliance to this tyranny is defeat, so I guess I will go east to Apache-Sitgreaves and spend my money in the neighboring towns.

[4Falls]

In my mind these restrictions on National forest land are not acceptable, so what is our next step? Is a lawsuite possible as these restrictions as I see them are in direct conflict of the National Forest Management Act of 1976. What other avenues do we have?

 

I have not read all the thread but up to this one only. You are right it is unacceptable and our next step is to comply. The time to fight this was in meetings that have been posted in the past with nobody showing up except the greenies to fight it.

 

The problem lies with us....... The people that use the outdoors and yet fail to unite from one group to the next to icrease numbers. The Off-road groups blame it on the huntting groups. The huntting groups blame it on the quads. The quads blame it on the RV's. The RV blame it on ect, ect, ect..... The greenies blame it on all of us and stand togather in numbers to screw us over.

 

 

WinMag is right the our window of opportunity has long since closed on this issue and it will be difficult to reverse. Its not only hunters that are getting affected by this its everyone who uses the forest. Woodcutters, campers, hikers, ranchers, birdwatchers... etc were all being watched.

I still believe that its just the first step in getting us all out of the woods.

 

I know someone who was "checked" while parked on an open road because his vehicle fit the description (white pick-up) of one that was reported to be driving on closed roads. In the end he was not cited, but was given the old "were watching you" speech.

 

Im planning on using my mountain bike to access areas while hunting this season... are mountain bikes legal on closed roads?

[Elkaddict]

The map sucks! There aren't any topo features to figure out where you are. IE: jacks canyon, east clear creek, water holes etc. If I see a road and it is heading to clear creek can I assume it goes all the way to the edge like it does now? Or more simply put if the road is on the map can you take it to the end or can they close it someplace before where it goes now.(understand what i am trying to say?) To be more specific there is a road through Mogollon Ranch,319, that on this map appears to stop a couple of hundred yards north of the subdivision then picks up again at the south edge of private property.

I am going to buy a map next week at the ranger station to see if it is clearer than the one online.

[coues krazy]

I dislike that if the road is not on the map you can't use it.

 

Is this the summary of the issue? The map only shows what roads are open for travel/camping?

 

If so, these new changes are going to be interesting. Where I camp there are a lot of weekend warrior types with their atvs, so I normally go further back until I don't see anyone for miles. I sure as heck won't be camping anywhere near any roads or people. Compliance to this tyranny is defeat, so I guess I will go east to Apache-Sitgreaves and spend my money in the neighboring towns.

 

Hate to tell you but apache sitgreaves has got a plan just like this one. Not sure when it goes into effect.

[dobbs07]

I personally like that they are closing many of the unnecessary small roads that criss-cross alot of our woods. In looking at the maps of both the kaibab and coconino closures, there is going to be a lot of prime quiet hunting areas for the bucks and bulls to grow big in. People are just going to have to work a little harder, and get out of their trucks and walk a little bit to get to them. Some of the places are ridiculous with the amount of people riding quads and rangers all over through the woods, and in alot of places you can't walk a 1/2 a mile in any direction without crossing a road. Take a look at some of the places in unit 8 over around white horse lake in the higher country, There's roads all over the flipping place, and the quads use them for a race track all summer. We've all been in the situation where you're out hunting, and find some awesome prime country, and start seeing some good sign, and then boom a ranger goes driving by on some small unseen logging road cutting right through an otherwise perfect area.Closing some of those roads will allow for alot more of these types of spots, and have less animals and hunters stacked on top of each other.

 

I think this will definitely help strengthen the herds, and allow for more animals to reach an older age class. It will also most likely decrease harvest numbers, so the high amounts of tags being issued has less of an impact. However, with all that being said I take issue with a couple of things. First of all, their distribution of information on this has been awful. If not for this site, I wouldn't have known about it til I was warned or cited, which leads me to my next point. How can they not put up some closed road signs, or at the very least pull all the road numbers, and say if you are not on a numbered road, then it is closed? Would it really be that much trouble to go out and drive a t-post in the road and attach a metal road closed sign? Where this is really going to hurt is there are going to be many people that will drive the roads any way, so the guys walking in, and riding bikes in are just going to get driven by, by people who either don't know or don't care. And that to me just sucks. The other thing that really sucks is the camping situation. I think they should give us at minimum 150 yards, and all the established camping grounds that are within that distance off of the still open main roads.

So again to summarize, I really like the idea of closing some of the unnecessary smaller roads that have been created by illegal woodcutters, quad riders, and people just driving cross country.I think it was definitely time to reign in some of the roads. It's going to make for some much better hunting if they can truly pull it off. However, I think for them to do so, they are going to need to post the roads, and or remove the numbered road signs from closed roads. Look I think the horse is already out of the barn on closin the roads. I don't see how we can get them to roll that back. However, I do see an opportunity to get some flexibility on camping spots, and I think we need to demand that either the roads be posted, or they say if its not numbered its closed, and to remove all closed road numbers. Thoughts?

 

Thanks,

-Matt

[Elkaddict]

Matt, I agree with you. As you can see by my previous post my biggest problem with the rule is not knowing what road is open or closed. I am going to assume all the little roads we have used for years are closed, but what about some of the major roads that have metal swing gates and asphalt entrances off Hwy.87 that I don't see on the new map? They better do something to inform the campers that only come up a couple of times a year, they aren't on this or any other outdoor forum, how are they going to know they can't camp in the spot they have been going to for the last 10 years?

I'm going to have a hard time not being able to go off road to retrieve an elk, but I'll get over that. I just have a hard time trying to figure out this lousey map they came up with!

[cosninocanines]

I dislike that if the road is not on the map you can't use it.

 

Is this the summary of the issue? The map only shows what roads are open for travel/camping?

 

If so, these new changes are going to be interesting. Where I camp there are a lot of weekend warrior types with their atvs, so I normally go further back until I don't see anyone for miles. I sure as heck won't be camping anywhere near any roads or people. Compliance to this tyranny is defeat, so I guess I will go east to Apache-Sitgreaves and spend my money in the neighboring towns.

 

Hate to tell you but apache sitgreaves has got a plan just like this one. Not sure when it goes into effect.

 

This is a Federal mandate to all land management agencies. BLM, National momuments etc. will be following suit. All National Forests are required to develope a travel management plan ASAP, so look for one in the forest near you. I can only speak for the Coconino and Kaibab they had plenty of open house forums and gave us plenty of time to voice our concerns. Go to the forest web site (google the forest your interested in and look for the plan) so you can voice your concerns.

[mp_moody]

I dislike that if the road is not on the map you can't use it.

 

Is this the summary of the issue? The map only shows what roads are open for travel/camping?

 

If so, these new changes are going to be interesting. Where I camp there are a lot of weekend warrior types with their atvs, so I normally go further back until I don't see anyone for miles. I sure as heck won't be camping anywhere near any roads or people. Compliance to this tyranny is defeat, so I guess I will go east to Apache-Sitgreaves and spend my money in the neighboring towns.

 

Hate to tell you but apache sitgreaves has got a plan just like this one. Not sure when it goes into effect.

 

This is a Federal mandate to all land management agencies. BLM, National momuments etc. will be following suit. All National Forests are required to develope a travel management plan ASAP, so look for one in the forest near you. I can only speak for the Coconino and Kaibab they had plenty of open house forums and gave us plenty of time to voice our concerns. Go to the forest web site (google the forest your interested in and look for the plan) so you can voice your concerns.

 

This is unfortunate that this is the first time I am hearing of these changes. I am sure this is news to others as well and I'm sure there are going to be a lot of ticked off people who receive warnings and/or citations because they didn't know. At this point it may be an uphill battle to reverse this.

[4Falls]

It will provide FS with a good source of revenue for a couple of years, then when we all get used to it they'll close a bit more and add a FS usage fee. And on and on and on. How else are they going to pay for the officers to patrol and for the helicopter fuel to fly over areas looking for rogue campers.

 

This type of rulemaking only effects the honest people anyway. The guys who have been breaking the rules for years love this stuff. Its always been against the rules to drive you quad or ranger cross country in Prescott and Kaibab NF. But they did it then and will continue. Meanwhile FS will be out with tape measures busting some family of four on there weekend get away.

[dobbs07]

To the guys opposed to this, what would you suggest be done? Just continue allowing people to go and camp wherever they want. To continue driving on roads they shouldnt, and creating new roads wherever they want? Do you also feel like the law stating people can't camp within 1/4 of a mile of a waterhole is infringing on their rights as well. Or are you glad you don't have someone camping right next to your treestand on your favorite waterhole?

 

I don't think this is such a bad thing guys. I think the problems, and our frustrations are stemming from their lack of educating people on it, and their lack of posting which roads are open or closed, except on a map.

 

I was thinking about how they handled 3c after the rodeo/chediski fire, and I think it could be a useful model. When they allowed public access back in, they had large signs at all of the access points with the rules and access details. If I remember correctly, they basically determined which roads they wanted people to drive on then they labeled them with arrows. On the main signs it said the only roads you could travel are the ones with arrows, and informed people what the designated camping areas and rules were. The same thing could be done with the forests now. Since they have already determined the roads they want open, they could go through and label them with arrows. Then they could put signs at all the access points informing the public. They could then enforce it the same way, if you are on a closed road without an arrow you get cited. And since everyone would have to drive past the large signs, no one could claim they didn't know the rules.

 

Im not sure how many of you guys spent time in 3c after the fire, but for me, and for many of the guys I talked to, it was some of the better hunting ever experienced. Obviously that can be attributed to several factors including the large amounts of greenup, but there is also a good chance alot of the reason was because people could no longer drive all over the place, or camp wherever they wanted. Now most roads in there have been reopened, and camping allowed in most places, and many people are saying that 3c isn't anything like it used to be. Again this could be due to other factors, but i don't think it's a coincidence that things were significantly better when access and camping was restricted. Just food for thought.

 

At this point complaining isn't going to make it go away, I think it may be best to provide feedback, and try to get the education and posting piece modified to improve the experience for everyone.

[Elkaddict]

 

I don't think this is such a bad thing guys. I think the problems, and our frustrations are stemming from their lack of educating people on it, and their lack of posting which roads are open or closed, except on a map.

 

I'm with you on this, they spent all last summer numbering roads and putting signs on waterholes and ridges, they should be able to put signs on open and closed roads this summer. I've seen signs on old logging roads on the rim that say road closed and I think for the most part people abide by that. Memorial weekend will be the first big test, interesting to see how that works out.

I think going off road to retrieve an elk (and not to chase them or look for drops)wouldn't hurt the land, but don't know how to get that turned around.

Bottom line is there are too many roads and too many people in the forest abusing the current travel laws.

So far I am having a hard time figuring out the map. No waterholes, canyons,etc named on the map, hard to figure where you are.

Going to be an interesting summer.

[vitalzone]

Is the issue vehicle control or people control? If I take horse's or mules can I set up a camp where I want? The laws have always been pack it in, pack it out, leave it as you found it. I can see vehicle control off existing roads but if they are controlling where I camp I do not agree, can I pack in to a spot and spend the night or am I in violation?

[4Falls]

"To the guys opposed to this, what would you suggest be done? Just continue allowing people to go and camp wherever they want. To continue driving on roads they shouldnt, and creating new roads wherever they want? Do you also feel like the law stating people can't camp within 1/4 of a mile of a waterhole is infringing on their rights as well. Or are you glad you don't have someone camping right next to your treestand on your favorite waterhole?"

 

 

To me this is much more complex then protecting habitat and creating quiet areas. Of course I want both of those things. There have already been rules in place for years preventing people from driving on undesignated areas (cross country for example). That never stopped anyone from doing it and it was rarely enforced. So now once again the game is changing for those of us who play by the rules and those who dont will continue on.

 

This whole thing smells to me.

From the 30' camping limit in the KNF. Its 300' in PNF and 30' or 300' depending where you are in the CNF. Not sure of the restrictions on the ASNF or TNF.

To the complete ambiguity of the closed or open road issue. It appears to me that some roads are open on the PNF side that are not on the KNF side for instance. Or some that are open for a portion of the way, how will one know when hes come to the legal end of a road? And as others have said the map just plain sucks and I'm sure thats intentional as well.

 

Many more examples have been expressed on this thread as well.

 

This is how the other side (the environmental movement) operates. One peice at a time. This is just another piece.

[missedagain]

99% of families camping outside of a designated fee based camping area last year were breaking this law. If you don't like to camp in a fee campground with 50 other people within 100 yards of you you are foolish to support this regulation.

[coues krazy]

99% of families camping outside of a designated fee based camping area last year were breaking this law. If you don't like to camp in a fee campground with 50 other people within 100 yards of you you are foolish to support this regulation.

 

 

+1