Change of the Rules

[ronaldo]

I think its a good idea to have a waiting period. 1 to 3 years. It may not change the odds much, but it will stop the guys draw elk tags every year. So what if you put in for crap hunts, thats your choice. Im at 10 pts and my wife is 15, we are waiting for a rut hunt...

I also agree with what 308 nut says, some tags should be once in a lifetime.

Ron

[tjhunt2]

I think its a good idea to have a waiting period. 1 to 3 years. It may not change the odds much, but it will stop the guys draw elk tags every year. So what if you put in for crap hunts, thats your choice. Im at 10 pts and my wife is 15, we are waiting for a rut hunt...

I also agree with what 308 nut says, some tags should be once in a lifetime.

Ron

 

We are very fortunate to have all the public forest we have. If you were to look at other states you will see we have a good draw system. If you and your wife can't get drawn for a rut hunt then try and change your priorities. You can draw every year if you weren't so picky. Don't blame the guys who get drawn every year. The wait period isn't the answer and don't blame us who draw every year. Pick a unit that you can draw and put your work in. Hunting in the rut should be illegal. Like catching bass off their beds. Just kidding! :lol:

 

TJ

[Snapshot]

I think its a good idea to have a waiting period. 1 to 3 years. It may not change the odds much, but it will stop the guys draw elk tags every year. So what if you put in for crap hunts, thats your choice. Im at 10 pts and my wife is 15, we are waiting for a rut hunt...

I also agree with what 308 nut says, some tags should be once in a lifetime.

Ron

 

We are very fortunate to have all the public forest we have. If you were to look at other states you will see we have a good draw system. If you and your wife can't get drawn for a rut hunt then try and change your priorities. You can draw every year if you weren't so picky. Don't blame the guys who get drawn every year. The wait period isn't the answer and don't blame us who draw every year. Pick a unit that you can draw and put your work in. Hunting in the rut should be illegal. Like catching bass off their beds. Just kidding! :lol:

 

TJ

 

 

Catch-n-release my friend.

[kidso]

Leave it alone!! The guys drawing year after year are probably not putting in for premium units. Such as my case I am 2 for 2 I don't put in for trophy hunts such as unit 9 archery. That tag is one of the most sought after. I would like to shoot a big bull, but I would rather hunt more than wait!!

 

+1. I've drawn 3 cow tags in 5 years, and had never even put in for a premium bull tag knowing that my odds of being draw for one were slim. However, I did put in for a high success draw rate late archery hunt that actually gave me BETTER draw odds than my usual cow rifle hunt, so I applied for that bull hunt as my first choice just to get into the field with a tag and got it! Yes, it will be a tough hunt and yes, there may not be monster bulls around, but hey...I'm after meat and I am hunting and that makes me happy.

[AZHUNTER05]

I would rather shoot 10 decent elk in my life time then wait 10 years between each hunt and kill 2 or 3 big bulls. Its all about priorities and choices. If you don't like your choices then make different ones and stop blaming everyone else for getting tags because your not "lucky" enough to get drawn. Its a fair system keep it.

[Tines]

I'll bite.

 

Anyone who says TJ has no business drawing that many consecutive tags doesn't know the whole story. I hear stories often of what's his name who "drew his 3rd bull tag in a row..". I'm still not quick to cry foul because it usually takes one more question to determine whether or not their definition of "a bull tag" is the same as some of ours. Many times you find out its a late rifle bull tag or even a late archery bull tag. To each his own if they want that tag. I'll never be hard on anyone who just wants to go hunting but let's get one thing straight, they are NOT equal to a rut tag.

 

I apply for rut tags. Doesn't mean my priorities are screwed up. Just means they're different than some of yours. I don't care if they gave TJ two extra cow tags a year, he's a good guy and appreciates them. But more importantly, not every elk tag is equal. That's the big difference. I work with some "hardcore" hunters who laugh at me because they drew "another elk tag" and I didn't. Many just look at all elk tags equally, but they're just not.

 

I drew my first bull tag this year after 18 years of applying. Some, without even knowing me or my circumstances, get upset when they hear i drew. For all they know its a late rifle tag! Some don't think there's a difference. I do. It's never crossed my mind to be upset with someone like TJ who draws the tags he does. He plays the odds and enjoys the "less" desirable permits. But i'm definitely guilty of being a little frustrated with certain guys who draw the "more" desirable permits often. Who wouldn't? Especially when I'm applying for the same hunts as them but have 3x the points.

 

This discussion is never ending and like someone mentioned, either way will leave someone upset. But it also seems the word "fair" has different meanings as well according to some. I'd say the majority (even the G and F) want to keep the system the way it is.

 

I've never been one to follow the majority so I say bring on the squared points for premium hunts!!! : )

[DubTee]

Tines,

 

Very well said. I agree with the others that a waiting period is basically useless as it really doesn't improve anyone's odds enough to make a difference. Squaring points would basically install an automatic waiting period for the more in demand hunts anyway, as low bonus point holders will have their odds drastically decreased.

[Alpinebullwinkle]

I am aligned with the above post. Having said that it appears many readers are misinterpreting many of our comments. I am against the waiting period we used to have back in the 1970's. But I am all for a renewal of the bonus point system to make it more effective and fair for all. I never begrudge anyone getting "lucky" and drawing a tag but when I have an idea to enhance the current system I feel compelled to share with all in hopes of improving the system we have.

-I once was drawn 11 out of 12 years for bull tags (one year AGF sent me two tags!)

-I guided a 17 year old boy that drew 7 successive bull tags (many were September hunts)

-I have a brother that has applied for 40 years and drawn 4 bull tags

-I have an 82 year old father-in-law that has drawn 5 bull tags in 60 years

 

I can't see how considering the above testimonials how anyone can rationalize that the current bonus point system is "fair". I frankly is mostly luck and the bonus points are fairly ineffective until you get almost two digits of them accumulated. The AGF has admitted to me your chances for a bull tag go down when you get to 5-6 bonus points because at that point people have waited so long they decide to hold out for a more preferred September hunt.

 

Squaring the bonus points when definitely make the points more effective. Instead of having to wait 10 years or so for a September bull hunt you could count on drawing a few years sooner. The lucky 17 year old I guided would probably only have drawn 4-5 out of those same years instead of 7 for 7 with the tighter bell curve and bonus points that are more effective from squaring. I can't understand why AGF or any hunters would not endorse that enhancement to improve everyone's odds over a 5 year span vs. waiting for 10 years or more.

[Alpinebullwinkle]

Sorry for a few typos in my previous post.

 

Bottom line our current system is more about "luck" in the draw than bonus points providing much "bonus" and improved odds in drawing a tag. This statement is not begruding as I have been probably in the top 90% for "luck" drawing tags over my 40 years (applying for bull tags only). I just hate to see how disappointed many of my relatives and friends are at this time of the year. By the way.... I drew September archery bull tags the last 3 out of 4 years so my concerns are not about me!

[idgaf]

This is the basic rule of supply and demand. 5000 people want 40 tags for a unit, bottom line is your going to wait or get lucky. I hold in high respect the people who can wait 10-20 years for a tag. There really is no reason to complain or demand a rule change, game and fish has it right it combines luck and dedication to give you the best opportunity for success. Hunters of Arizona have a limited resource, when it comes to elk, that has been managed well. For the record it takes me 4-5 points to get a late season archery tag.

[Alpinebullwinkle]

"game and fish has it right it combines luck and dedication to give you the best opportunity for success".

 

Your quote above is a pretty good way to express the current "bonus point system". All I am proposing is simply squaring the bonus points to 1) make the current system slightly less luck and more emphasis on earned bonus points. It would certainly be more fair overall to all applicants and still have the element of luck to keep everyone interested and invested!

[Bravo]

I like the idea of sitting out 1 year if you draw a "Premium" tag only. Statistically it won't increase your odds much, but I think it's not a bad idea. I'm also in favor of increasing the max points percentage to 30%. Great discussion!