Eliminate Auction tags entirely?

[dobbs07]

Hey guys, I was thinking of solutions to the issue, and one such solution that I have not really seen discussed is a bill to eliminate the sale of auction tags entirely. Hear me out on this please. If the people behind HB 2072 were so easily able to get a bill proposed to set aside auction tags for sale. Why couldn't we pass a bill to eliminate the sale of auction tags altogether? Wouldn't this pretty much stop AZSFW and Gilstrap in their tracks, as it is the main backbone of the plan they are trying to push through? Maybe this is why they tried to push HB 2072 as emergency legislation, as they were worried that we'd respond with something like this?

 

Now it seems many of us are against the adding of additional auction tags, so let's examine this further. Why is it that were opposed with adding additional auction tags, but we already currently allow tags to be sold to the highest bidder? Why do we tolerate this at all? IMO allowing one of these tags is just as bad as having 10 of em, and just as bad as 20, etc. If we close the door entirely, then they cant keep trying to take a little more each year. Now one of the reasons that I see thrown around the most is that they are a necessary evil to get the additional revenue they generate, but it this really true? Here's my thinking: If we eliminate all auction tags, and put those tags that were previously auctioned into the AZ big game super raffle, what's to stop the would be auction tag buyers, from buying as many raffle tickets as they want? They, could spend $100,000 on raffle tickets, and not only that, but you may have multiple guys who are willing to spend this kind of money for tickets, instead of just the one winner like you would have in an auction. In this type of instance, obviously the guy who buys the most tags has a better chance of drawing a tag, but it doesn't guarantee them a permit like the current auction system does. I think that if these guys that are currently buying the auction tags, do not have another outlet to purchase the tags, they will funnel their money into the supper raffle in an attempt to win the tag instead. So to summarize, I think that we should seriously consider proposing a bill to eliminate auction tags entirely, and use the current auction tags that are already set aside to be placed into the super raffle. I think that the money lost from the auction tags can potentially be offset by the amount of additional revenue generated by the extra raffle tickets purchased in the super raffle. What does everyone think?

[donniedent]

Interesting thought.. Very good point. I'm gonna take some time and consider that myself.

[bigjohnson123]

To think that multiple people would spend the equivelent on raffle tickets is outrageous. Potential buyers will simply take there money to other states that would still allow auction tags such as, cali, nev, utah, colo, new mex, oregon, wash, kansas, iowa, wyo, and every other state that has western big game!! I am lucky to clear 30 grand a year as a self employed electrician with a side biz of a few head of livestock, but I must say the wealth envy of the bulk of you is disgusting...and very obvious, even if you won't admit to your selves...

[elkaholic]

The money guys pushing this type of legislation - you know who you are, so do we - AH_ FG _AP they know we have the best wildlife money can buy - It's evident they are not happy with harvesting a single animal per yr.

 

let them go to another state - it will not matter if they buy the one tag here or run up the bill - somebody else will take their place - why do you think they want these tags - they are the best any state can offer - we sportsmen and women are saying -NOT HERE IN ARIZONA

 

might be the wrong thread but oh well!

[donniedent]

I personally don't feel any envy for the wealthy but I also don't subscribe to the "kings deer" wildlife model. Fair is fair is fair and you shouldn't have a leg up on anyone just because you can afford to. That's not what hunting or wildlife conservation should be about. You have lots of money? Great! Get in line like everyone else.

[bigjohnson123]

"And while nothing may match the excitement of having one of these coveted tags and the adventure they bring, the hunts pale in comparison to the projects put on the ground through the dollars raised.

 

Every dollar raised from each species tag goes directly to the management of that species and allows for a multitude of wildlife conservation projects. Management of the dollars and projects are in coordination with the Arizona Habitat Partnership Committee.

 

Projects range from water improvements, wildlife friendly fencing, wildlife studies, game surveys, translocations, habitat restorations, land acquisitions and more. Many of these projects are matched and further leveraged with other funding sources, labor, or supplied materials, stretching every dollar spent even further.

 

In the end, the real winners of the Special Big Game License Tag Program are the citizens of Arizona. Through the dedication of concerned hunters and sportsmen, Arizonans can continue to enjoy the state’s full complement of diverse wildlife for generations to come."

 

Above taken straight from the G&F website. Anyone that hunts in AZ and then denies that these tags are beneficial to them is completley in denial and grossly under educated to be arguing the merits of them...

[krp]

I'm neither hot nor cold on the current auction tags... I'll never buy one or guide one to make money off of. In the current system they go 100% to the G&F into the HPC system from what I understand, I assume this means it's only for conservation use. If there were no auction tags I truly wouldn't care.

 

In the new system tags would be removed from units out of the general draw and sold, the money would go to a private interest group that would spend it anyway they want, "including' transferring over a percentage to a political PAC organization for lobbying politicians.

 

This is what our political systems have decayed to in this country, buying legislation. It's truly abhorrent.

 

Kent

[dobbs07]

To think that multiple people would spend the equivelent on raffle tickets is outrageous. Potential buyers will simply take there money to other states that would still allow auction tags such as, cali, nev, utah, colo, new mex, oregon, wash, kansas, iowa, wyo, and every other state that has western big game!! I am lucky to clear 30 grand a year as a self employed electrician with a side biz of a few head of livestock, but I must say the wealth envy of the bulk of you is disgusting...and very obvious, even if you won't admit to your selves...

 

Why is it so hard to believe? Instead of one person spending 150k you could have 5 people spending 30k. It's the same total, but a different means of getting there. It's a possibility that they may take their money elsewhere, but none of those other states consistently produce the world class animals our state does. It's also a possibility it may generate more revenue, because potential buyers see that their cost is significantly lower to try to obtain a tag. Also they could try for several years before they even approach what they would have spent in one year on an auction tag. From what I understand these contributions are often used as tax write offs anyway, so seems like a win win to me. The bottom line is without trying all we can do is speculate. And being close-minded like bigjohnson, isn't going to get us anywhere.

[40-year-AZ-hunter]

"And while nothing may match the excitement of having one of these coveted tags and the adventure they bring, the hunts pale in comparison to the projects put on the ground through the dollars raised.

 

Every dollar raised from each species tag goes directly to the management of that species and allows for a multitude of wildlife conservation projects. Management of the dollars and projects are in coordination with the Arizona Habitat Partnership Committee.

 

Projects range from water improvements, wildlife friendly fencing, wildlife studies, game surveys, translocations, habitat restorations, land acquisitions and more. Many of these projects are matched and further leveraged with other funding sources, labor, or supplied materials, stretching every dollar spent even further.

 

In the end, the real winners of the Special Big Game License Tag Program are the citizens of Arizona. Through the dedication of concerned hunters and sportsmen, Arizonans can continue to enjoy the state’s full complement of diverse wildlife for generations to come."

 

Above taken straight from the G&F website. Anyone that hunts in AZ and then denies that these tags are beneficial to them is completley in denial and grossly under educated to be arguing the merits of them...

 

Now G&F is wise? Which is it - are they wise of not? Funny, the 2072 supporters don't quote the Commission when it voted 5-0 to oppose the legislation. To listen to some of the supporters, G&F has completely messed things up and that's why we need to give SFW 350 tags to bring in money to fix the mess (like Utah has done in their minds).

 

Bruce

[donniedent]

I don't think anyone disagrees with what you are saying but if private entities want to use a good example of what auction tags can do as a loophole to further their own agenda and distribute the money as they see fit, I don't think shutting the loophole completely is a bad idea. Its very unfortunate that we should even need to entertain the idea. What truly NEEDS to happen is average hunters need to step up and contribute to conservation in a real way so that AZSFW can't use it as an excuse to take tags away.

[muskrat]

What bigjohnson said. I see nothing wrong with the current model of offering a very limited number of auction tags. One rich guy with a checkbook can do more to help wildlife than some people could with a lifetime of habitat project volunteer-hours. Everything is relative - I rarely can afford a banquet ticket. When I do go, there are members there who are stacked with handfuls of raffle tickets and a debit card ready to purchase a safari at the silent auction. Should I resent those folks or be suspicious of their motives? Other posters have mentioned it - there are a plethora of challenges to hunting in Arizona and to date, we haven't stepped up to solve them. Not to say we haven't stepped up at all, but the problems exceed the current level of cash and volunteers.

 

The problem with the current situation is the motivation of those individuals, the lack of forthrightness,and frankly the disregard for opinions of the critter groups and average hunters. It is clear that the AZSFW isn't doing this for our wildlife or to protect our heritage - their unwillingness to engage the groups and/or public clearly demonstrates that.

[dobbs07]

What bigjohnson said. I see nothing wrong with the current model of offering a very limited number of auction tags. One rich guy with a checkbook can do more to help wildlife than some people could with a lifetime of habitat project volunteer-hours. Everything is relative - I rarely can afford a banquet ticket. When I do go, there are members there who are stacked with handfuls of raffle tickets and a debit card ready to purchase a safari at the silent auction. Should I resent those folks or be suspicious of their motives? Other posters have mentioned it - there are a plethora of challenges to hunting in Arizona and to date, we haven't stepped up to solve them. Not to say we haven't stepped up at all, but the problems exceed the current level of cash and volunteers.

 

The problem with the current situation is the motivation of those individuals, the lack of forthrightness,and frankly the disregard for opinions of the critter groups and average hunters. It is clear that the AZSFW isn't doing this for our wildlife or to protect our heritage - their unwillingness to engage the groups and/or public clearly demonstrates that.

 

You may see nothing wrong with the current model, but does that mean there might not be a better way of doing things? Can you or anyone else for that matter say with any certainty that the idea I proposed wouldn't generate the same or even more money than the current system?

[krp]

Math wise, you could charge 5 bucks as a habitat stamp when buying a hunting or fishing license, excluding youths, and generate about the same dollars than the current auction tags.

 

Now though I believe there are issues with the draw the way it's evolved with the 20% pass draw and the 1-2 general draw and the maturity of bonus points... there is something about 'tradition' and the draw evolved through time to this tradition, are there better or just as good options, possibly.

 

The tradition of the auction tags has merit... but it isn't the only way or possibly even the best way if push comes to shove.

 

I've said before that this group pushing 2072 is also risking the current auction tags in future court battles... it's a stupid risk.

 

Kent

[muskrat]

No, but no more or less than you could say with certainty that your idea will work better. It is my understanding that these threads are a place to post opinions. By stating an opinion that I think the current system is OK, doesn't negate your opinion, nor does it imply that there is more than one acceptable solution to the problem.

[azgutpile]

Does anyone know what the raffle tags bring in vs. the auction tag?